Nicole Kincaid - Perfectly Imperfect Pups | The Long Leash #22

James: [00:00:00] Imagine, if you were to lose an arm or a leg tomorrow, chances are your whole world would be flipped upside down. And it would probably take some time for you to get used to living with such a drastic change. But not so with dogs. They don't just learn to live with it, they can adapt quickly and they can thrive with such a disability. And that is just another reason on the very, very, very long list of reasons why dogs are so incredible. Hello, I'm James Jacobson and welcome to the Long Leash. In today's episode I'm speaking to someone who is just as amazing as our beloved companions. Her name is Nicole Kincad. Nicole, who has been in the pet rescue business for over 10 years, founded and runs the Perfectly Imperfect Pups Rescue. PIP for short, PIP, which specializes in dogs that have disabilities. Whether a dog is missing a leg, or deaf, or blind, or all of the above, Nicole and her team give the dog the love and care that it needs, and then hopefully deliver it into the arms of a foster or adopted family who knows just how perfect that pup really is. Nicole Kincad. Thank you for being with us today.

Nicole: [00:01:29] Thank you so much for having us. Me. 

James: [00:01:31] I would, well, all of you, because I want to start with the all of you, cause I think I want to begin this by asking a little bit about Kina and Mr. Magoo. 

Nicole: [00:01:43] Yeah. So, uh, Kina and Mr. Magoo are my two first, uh, special needs dogs. I was fostering with another, a rescue and they said, hey, are you interested in taking a little puppy that needs her leg amputated? And I was like, sure, why not? And soon after they were like, Hey, we just got a blind dog. Are you interested in that? I was like, sure. Why not? And that started my journey down special needs. 

James: [00:02:10] And Kina, what kind of dogs are they? 

Nicole: [00:02:13] They're German shepherds. 

James: [00:02:15] They're both German Shepherds. Okay. 

Nicole: [00:02:16] Yes. 

James: [00:02:16] So tell me about that process. Cause so it sounds like you had been fostering for awhile other dogs quote-unquote normal non-special needs, although any dog that's being fostered has a special need and I'm sure we'll get into that. But you were fostering four legged dogs and dogs that could see and, when, when this opportunity came along to foster a dog that was about to become a tripawd, I'm assuming it had cancer or what was the reason?

Nicole: [00:02:52] She was an eight week old puppy and she came from a backyard breeder. And at that breeder, they stacked the cages. And so her leg fell through and broke and they didn't do anything about it. And so then drop through his chemo kina and then dropped her off at a high kill shelter. And so that's how I got her.

James: [00:03:14] Okay. So walk me through that conversation. When someone says we have this dog that is special needs. 

Nicole: [00:03:22] You know, it's so funny because she was my first special needs dog, but I didn't even hesitate. There was no like, gee, what does this look like? Or can I do this? It was like, yep, okay. Yep, we're doing this. And I did it. And, um, you know, during her first little bit, we kept her leg for as long as we possibly could because we wanted her to get her growth strong, and we wanted her to be at a good point for surgery and, I will say that post-surgery I was probably one of those people that I was like, oh my God, she's bleeding. Oh my gosh, she's doing this. Oh my gosh, she's doing, this is this normal? Is this normal? And now it's so funny, cause I got a dog that needs their leg removed. I'm like, it's fine. A little bit of blood. It's fine. Like so much. I've grown so much in taking on these, these different cases 

James: [00:04:14] And that growth has occurred over a period of how long?

Nicole: [00:04:18] She's eight, 

James: [00:04:20] Eight years, okay. 

Nicole: [00:04:21] Eight years. 

James: [00:04:22] So you've seen a lot of amputations and you've seen a lot of medical conditions that I suspect you didn't even know existed when you began. 

Nicole: [00:04:33] That is very true. Very true. So many different diseases. And even now like, I hear a new one and I'm like I deep dive into them. I do as much research as I can to learn everything I can about that disease or that condition, so that I'm set. And then I can set up my fosters to success and then eventually send up, set up my adopters to success. Succeed. 

James: [00:04:57] You are what we at Dog Podcast Network affectionately call a dog health nerd. 

Nicole: [00:05:02] Yes I am. It's so funny. Cause uh, my friends call me for medical advice on their pets before they call their vets. And I'm like, okay, I'm not a vet, but. 

James: [00:05:13] But I have spent a lot of time with Dr. Google. 

Nicole: [00:05:16] Yes. Yes, I have. 

James: [00:05:18] You have to sometimes be a little trepidatious about it. So what are some of the interesting diseases if there, if that's the right word, that, uh, that you've helped to foster through PIP. 

Nicole: [00:05:30] So, um, one of the, um, main ones that there's actually not a lot of foster homes that are willing to take this type of dog is a condition called Megaesophagus.

James: [00:05:42] Now tell our listeners about that. Cause that is a pretty interesting one. 

Nicole: [00:05:45] It's a bit, it's a big word too. Um, short, we call it mega E for short, but, um, basically it's where the esophagus, um, doesn't have the muscles to pull down the food correctly. And so, um, it sits in like a sag. In the esophagus, the food does. And it, it never travels to the stomach. And so they'll regurgitate it right back up. And a lot of times with that, they, it will cause aspiration pneumonia. Cause it'll go right back into the lungs. And so you sit the dogs in a special highchair. And that basically helps gravity pull that food to down to the stomach. Um, there's also a billion different, 

James: [00:06:25] There's a name for that chair, right?

Nicole: [00:06:26] A Bailey's chair. 

James: [00:06:28] A Bailey's chair, thats right. Okay. And then I presume named after a dog named Bailey, we don't know, but it's an interesting, w we'll put a link in the show notes to a Bailey's chair, cause it's kind of interesting. And so that's kind of one of the focuses that you have okay. That you have. Within your organization, are these Megaesophagus dogs or just, that just turns out to be something that people know, oh, Nicole can help.

Nicole: [00:06:54] Yes. That's exactly what happens is that people tag me or shelters contact me because they know I have the experience with it.

James: [00:07:02] Now you're in Wake Forest, North Carolina, but you are helping dogs, not just in North Carolina. 

Nicole: [00:07:09] Correct. We've taken from Texas, Alabama. Um, we took one from Armania. Um, so all over the United States, Florida, my most recent two were from South Florida. So we get them from all over the place. 

James: [00:07:24] Let's talk about this evolution of PIP, which, which by the way, is Perfectly Imperfect Pups. Did you come up with that? 

Nicole: [00:07:30] Yes,

James: [00:07:31] I love it. I think it's, I imagine that something that has resonated with people as they start discovering your organization, the name 

Nicole: [00:07:39] I think so. Yeah, it started with my hashtag. Um, before I started PIPs, I had a hashtag for all of my special needs dogs. Um, imperfection is perfection and that was all my social media hashtags. So when I started PIPs, I knew that those words needed to be in there in some way, shape or form. And so we started playing with, I had a seven hour planning meeting with a girlfriend and we started playing with just, how can we make that name happen? And PIPs is what we ended up coming up with. 

James: [00:08:11] So your organization started last fall, September, October area? 

Nicole: [00:08:15] Yep, right in that area. Yes. 

James: [00:08:17] Of 2020, because there was nothing else going on in 2020, right? 

Nicole: [00:08:21] Nothing at all. Why not start a business in the middle of a pandemic? 

James: [00:08:25] And what was that journey? What is that journey like? And how is it and how's it going?

Nicole: [00:08:30] It was scary. It was really scary because for the past 10, 12 years, all of the fosters that I took in, somebody else had to pay the bills, right? The founder to that rescue paid those bills, the, um, you know, they worried about the money in the end, and if we were getting enough, um, donations and adoption fees and all of that. And so. It was a really scary thing to jump into that and decide that that's what we were going to do. And then on top of it know that a lot of our dogs are going to cost more than the average puppy or adult that is not disabled, um, surgeries and wheelchairs and Bailey's chairs, and just longer in the foster home while we found that perfect home for these dogs. So it was a little bit scary, but, um, I have a group of people that I lovingly call the pioneers and they helped, um, kind of build up PIPs and design PIPs to what it is today, and they're all volunteers with me and they make this happen. 

James: [00:09:39] How did you recruit the volunteers? .

Nicole: [00:09:41] Pioneers. Yeah. I've worked with them in rescue in the past few years, and when I left my previous rescue, um, they kinda came with me and said, let's do this. I came to them and I said, I have this great idea. This is kind of what I think I want to do. And they're like, yeah, we're behind you a hundred percent. What can we do? How can we make this happen? And together we made it happen.

James: [00:10:03] How do you afford this? As you say, it costs a lot more to take care of these types of dogs than a quote unquote normal dog. 

Nicole: [00:10:11] Yeah, well, I'm taking applications for a sugar daddy, so if there's any out there, just, you know, feel free to hit me up. Um, so our rescue relies solely on donations, and adoption fees. So an adoption fee covers the basic cost of a healthy dog. And we do not raise our adoption fees when we take in special needs. So it's the same price, but a lot of our special needs costs a lot more. So we rely solely on donations. 

James: [00:10:42] So the let's talk about the financial gap there. So adoption fee is?

Nicole: [00:10:47] $325 for adults, and $375 for puppies. 

James: [00:10:51] Okay. And then the average cost to take care of one of your special needs dogs is? 

Nicole: [00:10:57] Well, for instance, today I have a dog that was hit by a car puppy for a month old puppy, uh, hit by a car four times, four times. 

James: [00:11:06] Once wasn't enough that he just went back and forth or four different on four separate occasions or 

Nicole: [00:11:11] one time? 

One time, four different cars hit this puppy and it has some pretty nasty breaks on its leg. And our surgery will cost about $3,500. 

James: [00:11:24] And so what's this dog's name? 

Nicole: [00:11:25] Uh, this dog's name is, um, Nitro. 

James: [00:11:30] Okay, so nitro is going to require almost $3,500 in surgery, and eventually you're hoping that Nitro will be adopted for $350 or something. So where are you make up? How do you go about making up that gap? You say donations, but what are the mechanics of doing that and how do you get the word out? 

Nicole: [00:11:52] So social media is huge, unfortunately, um, after the pandemic people don't like social media anymore. It came very political and it, um, just a little bit, um, and people got sick of it. They were on their phone, 23 hours a day doing absolutely nothing but scrolling through Facebook or Instagram. And so we don't unfortunately have the followers that we would have had before that. So we do really beg for money when we, um, get these kinds of cases. So we'll put up a fundraiser on Facebook, on Instagram, we'll ask for money. Um, sometimes we get the full amount of surgery and sometimes we don't. Um, and sometimes we get over what we ask and that little bit of extra will go towards the next dog and so on and so forth. But, um, as of just a little bit ago, we had, um, $300 raised of our $3,000. So there's a gap there. And, um, you know, I think that's a misconception with a lot of people when they think about rescues, oh, they have the money they're funded by the state. They're funded by this. They're funded by that. And we're not, we only rely on those donations. 

James: [00:13:11] The impact of the elections and the impact of all that stuff on social media and how it's impacted your ability to raise funds. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?

Nicole: [00:13:24] Absolutely. Um, so, and this is not just with my rescue. We're seeing this across the board with other rescues and shelters. The hits on our posts during the pandemic and before the pandemic are quadruple the hits that we're getting now, and that the stories haven't changed dog hit by car dog left outside shelter, megaesophagus adorable puppy. Like these stories have not changed the way we're presenting them have not changed. But our hits on our social media, our engagements on our social media, the funds that we raise have all gone significantly down, um, since COVID has started to send things started to open up again. Um, and I think they're, they're, it's, it's a little bit of everything. Um, it's the, you know, people got sick of seeing, um, their politics on their social media, which. I get, um, and kind of stopped. Um, people are vacationing, um, they're not thinking about, um, giving $5 to, you know, nitro surgery fund. They're thinking about that my tie they're going to have on the beach, which I kind of don't blame them. I'm ready for my tie on the beach. Um, and, uh, they're, they're not on social media as much because they are just social mediad out. And that does have a trickle effect on things like, you know, the rescues that rely on these people. There's no other way for me to get my word out, unless I cold emailed or cold called people and say, Hey, I have a puppy that needs $3,000 surgery. Can you give me $5? Um, so it's, we rely on social media to get that word out.

James: [00:15:16] Do you think this is a function of something that the social media companies did or that the people who previously had been on social media that were contributing to PIPs are no longer on those platforms? 

Nicole: [00:15:31] I think it's a mix of both. So Facebook changes their algorithm every other day. And I would like to have a talk with Mark Zuckerberg about this. So again, 

James: [00:15:40] He's in the next room, let me call him in. 

Nicole: [00:15:41] Excellent. Thank you so much for that. Um, it's a, it's a mix of both people aren't seeing our posts as much as they were because that algorithm changes all the time and they want us to pay for paid posts and all of that stuff. Um, you know, sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't, but it is, um, I think it's a little bit of everything. I think people are not on social media. I know plenty of people who have gotten rid of their Facebook accounts because they're sick of it or at least, you know, walked away from it. Um, so I think it's a little bit of everything. 

James: [00:16:15] And you're in North Carolina is one of those kind of red states with a bit of blue pieces to it. So I can see where that might cause I think a lot of people. who uh left Facebook we're we're we're we're um, red supporters is that fair? We wont turn too political, but I think it's, I think it's an interesting thing that I had never heard. And it's an observation that is impacting your ability to help these dogs. In need. So how do you pivot? How do you adjust? How do you reach people other than going on podcasts like this? 

Nicole: [00:16:48] Um, this is really how we do it. So, um, we get, um, we send out, press releases quite a bit to our local media because when we get on those, we get the, you know, kind of extra kick in our stories. Um, you know, I do a lot of Dodo stories.

Um, I've done three, four Dodo stories. Um, and they're fabulous for getting people back to our social media. Um, I do a lot of Tik Toks, Tik Tok is it right now, and that does not, um, when I do it, when I get a viral Tik Tok, it does not go back to Facebook, but we do get a lot more hits on our Instagram. 

James: [00:17:25] And does that result in, uh, donations? Or are you able to tell. 

Nicole: [00:17:31] Um, it is not always directly donations, but we get more followers and those followers share, and those followers sometimes donate when those, when these types of cases hit. So the more followers we have, the more, um, you know, rate of success we have when we do these kinds of fundraisers. Um, we also do, uh, We did, um when we first started, we did some sponsorships, some larger companies sponsoring, and that did help a little bit that gave us some money in the beginning. And we're going to change up the way that we do our sponsorships in the upcoming year. Um, and that does help a little bit reaching out to these businesses. We do a lot of fundraisers. Um, we do a lot of our adoption events at breweries and bottle shops and wine shops, and we get a percentage back from the bar sales. Um, so we do get by with some stuff like that, and that does help a lot, but that doesn't. 

James: [00:18:32] $3,500 surgery for Nitro. That's a lot of beers. 

Nicole: [00:18:36] Exactly. I mean, we might be able to put away that many beers, but probably not in one, two hour adoption event 

James: [00:18:43] Not until not until college is back in full session. I'm keen to hear some more about Nicole's experiences with the Dodo. So after we take a quick break, how she got involved in some of the memorable segments she's done. We'll be right back.

We are back with Nicole Kincade Dodo. Let's talk about the Dodo for our listeners who are not familiar with the Dodo. What is the Dodo? 

Nicole: [00:19:12] It's an online experience that tells stories about animals and the lives and the trials and tributes, and sometimes laughter that they go through. 

James: [00:19:23] And you have been profiled three times or had three different, three different videos, Dodo videos done, which tend to often go viral. How did you first get connected with the producers at  Dodo? 

Nicole: [00:19:37] Um, I reached out to them. Um, about a story about the, within the last rescue that I was with and, um, started working with the producer. And so I just reached out to him anytime I have an interesting story, and, um, you know, he either connects me with a producer that's running that would be good for this story. Sometimes he does the story. Um, and sometimes he said, It's not going to work for our listeners and we just move on. So, um, it's nice to have that connection. Um, and it's nice to work with them. They really do a lot for smaller rescues like myself. 

James: [00:20:16] And are they local to you? 

Nicole: [00:20:18] No, they're actually based in New York, but they have, uh, camera, they hire camera people from all over the United States. And so they'll use a mix of clips that I provide them. And then depending on what it, what we're doing, they usually send out a camera person for a day of filming. 

James: [00:20:35] So the top video, which we will post link to, that you did with the Dodo, tell us about that. 

Nicole: [00:20:43] So I think the one that I don't know, there's, there's two that we've done recently that got a lot of hits. One was with a dog named Tony who was hit by a car. Um, we do a lot of dogs that have been hit by a car. And Tony was one of those dogs that when you met him, Your whole world brightened up. Like he was that kind of dog. And so he just kinda resignated with our, um, followers. And so what I reached out to Matt with the Dodo, I was like, I got a story for you. And I sent him the clips and he was like, this dog is magical. And I was like, I know, so we did a whole story on him and his foster ended up foster failing him and adopting him. So it was a great little, uh, plot twist. So we did that story with them. And then one that went hugely viral and they actually ran twice was we took in, um, three sisters. We named him the charm sisters, Phoebe, Piper, and, Pru, I think it was. And, um, they were left at the shelters, um, gate. Two of them were tied to their gate pole and one was left in a chewy box and they had mange so badly. The one left in the chewy box, we actually didn't think was going to survive. And a vet actually, um, recommended to the shelter to euthanize this puppy. And I had already reached out to the shelter and said we would take them. And so luckily the shelter manager said, no, we got a rescue. We're not going to put her down. But she was a case. She had open sores all over her body. She was miserable, but she pulled through it and the Dodo did a story on the three of the girls and kind of their, um, Whole thing. And then where they were now and stuff, they've all been adopted to great homes and they're doing fantastic. Have their coats look amazing.

James: [00:22:40] Now you have a full brood. You have, uh, three children, five fur babies?

Nicole: [00:22:48] Six fur babies. 

James: [00:22:50] Six, and most of them are foster fails. Is that true?

Nicole: [00:22:53] Yeah. Yup. Yup. Yup. Uh, five of them are foster fails and when I went out and adopted.

James: [00:23:01] Okay. So we've already established that you're independently wealthy beyond on all measure. 

Nicole: [00:23:06] All measures, yeah. 

James: [00:23:08] Yes. In fact, you actually have a full-time job. 

Nicole: [00:23:12] Yes, I do. 

James: [00:23:14] What do you do in your day job when you're, when you're not rescuing these dogs? 

Nicole: [00:23:18] Yeah, I'm a training manager for an It company that's global. Um, I run one of their training departments and, um, they're fabulous with what I do. They know that I have the rescue on the side and that this is my passion and I only work for them to pay my bills. Uh, but they're, they're really great about allowing me to have the time to do this, but I still do juggle a lot. And I work into the evenings to get both my stuff done. Um, but it's worth it. It's a hundred percent worth it because, um, the rescue portion is my passion. Like I could not imagine life without my fur babies and without rescuing dogs on a daily. 

James: [00:23:59] What do you see for PIPs, I don't know, in the coming five years? 

Nicole: [00:24:03] What I would like to see for PIPs, um, there are very few facilities, um, that has the ability to take in a special needs. Um, and I would like to see us have that facility. I would like to see a facility where when we get a call about a dog that, um, you know, has been hit by a car and need surgery or. Is paralyzed or has megaesophagus that we don't just have to think about the funds. We don't have to think about where we're going to put that dog. We have a place for that dog to go. Um, and whether that dog stays there forever or eventually finds their forever home, but at least they have a space for it. Um, we have a space for that puppy, so that is you know, the long-term goal. Will that happen in five years? It depends on if that sugar daddy gives me a call or not. Um, but that is definitely my ultimate goal with PIPs um, between now and then, um, I think that what I want to get the public to understand and to, um, I'd like to see it more normalized to adopt the special needs dogs. I don't want it to see, I don't want people to go. Oh, I'm so sorry that your dog is blind. Like, I just want them to go, oh, you have a blind dog, fantastic. And how is it doing? So I want people to look past the disability on these dogs and normalize that to have them in their homes. Obviously there are dogs that are not going to fit people's lifestyles, and that's fine, but I don't want it to be this weird thing when they bring in a special needs, 

James: [00:25:47] you know, you kind of help people adopt the kind of dogs that veterinarians are, they're known as veterinarian dogs. Cause veterinarians tend to take these very special dogs that have all sorts of, you know, like backwards knees and you know, both blind and deaf. Um, and that's what you have been doing. You, you must see the best of humanity in this process. 

Nicole: [00:26:10] The best or the worst of humanity. Um, definitely, um, you know, the people that adopt these special needs, absolutely. The finest humans out there. My fosters who take in these dogs, the finest people out there, um, you know, so I see that side of it definitely.

James: [00:26:29] And the worst of humanity? 

Nicole: [00:26:30] For instance, Tony? The dog that I was telling you about that was hit by a car? His owner watched him get hit by a car, got back into his car and drove away. The bystanders are the ones that took him to the shelter. 

James: [00:26:43] Do you ever get to speak with the people like that owner? 

Nicole: [00:26:49] No, because it wouldn't wnd well.

James: [00:26:54] He's not your sugar daddy. 

Nicole: [00:26:56] No

James: [00:26:57] Is that, something that, that you worry about is that, do you think that that worst of humanity is something that is, is addressable or does it just need to be, uh, made better through these wonderful people who end up adopting from PIPs. 

Nicole: [00:27:17] You know, I think it is. I think society is putting enough pressure on the people who are the bad humans for lack of a better word, um, to do better. And so I do think that some people are trying to do better. I think that some people are, um, you know, no matter what you do, they will never do better. Um, and then for those types of people, we can only hope that, you know, we're able to get those dogs before it is too late. Um, help them to understand where, what is needed to be a good dog mom or dad, um, and what that dog needs. So I think it's, I think it's a mix. I think that we just, we, we, we have to keep educating the public. And I think that that's the most important piece of it is to educate what these dogs need and what it is to be a good human being, 

James: [00:28:12] Now obviously we are on audio. This is not a visual medium, but we are conducting this within a video call. So I'm going to ask two things. First of all, tell me about your t-shirt. 

Nicole: [00:28:23] So this is one of our main t-shirts it's love is love. Um, and. Thank you. Um, yeah, so it is four dogs and, uh, three of them are special needs and one is not. Um, and, uh, it's, it's, again, that whole love is love. Um, you know, every dog deserves that love and that home. And again, it doesn't matter what disability or PIP enabled, um, PIP ability that dog has. They deserve that love. And so that's kind of where love is love. It's just this simple version of it. 

James: [00:28:59] And then when you actually touched on something in that cartoon on your shirt, um, which I imagine you sell that shirt on your website.

Nicole: [00:29:07] We do, 

James: [00:29:08] We do, we'll put a link there. Um, the idea of both disabled and able body living together. Do you hear anecdotes? Like they get along great or do they have problems or what happens? 

Nicole: [00:29:23] You know, I have that. I have a mixed, uh, pack at my house. Half of mine are special needs and half of them are not, and they get along just fine. You know? They know that Magoo is going to bump into them cause he's blind and sometimes they get in his way and you know, it's so funny cause you know, Magoo will bump into somebody and Magoo will bark at them. Like, how dare you be in my way.

James: [00:29:43] He is Mr. Magoo.

Nicole: [00:29:44] He is Mr. Magoo. Um, and so, you know, I mean, it's just, dogs are amazing. I feel like that they know that another dog has some sort of disability and they accommodate that for them. 

James: [00:29:59] Makes sense. Okay. And the final thing I wanted to ask you visually, is I understand you have a tattoo. 

Nicole: [00:30:04] I have many. 

James: [00:30:06] Okay. I understand there's a tattoo that one on your arm. What is that? 

Nicole: [00:30:11] It says imperfection is perfection. Um, it's the hashtag that I used. Um, I actually got this tattoo after I lost an entire litter of special needs puppies. Um, and that was actually, um, for me, I actually almost walked away from  doing this because it was the hardest loss that I had. Um, and, um, I spent like two days at the bottom of a bottle of wine crying. And, uh, then I was like, okay, it's time to heal. And because I had always used this hashtag, I was like, that just needs to be a tattoo. And that's kinda one of those weird ways that I healed. 

James: [00:30:52] And you can just look at your arm any time if you need, uh, a little fortification. 

Nicole: [00:30:56] Exactly. 

James: [00:30:57] Imperfection is perfection. Well, um, Nicole Kincaid, you are perfect. I love what you guys are doing at PIPs it's awesome. Thank you so much for being with us. 

Nicole: [00:31:06] Thank you so much for having us for me. Why do I keep saying us? 

James: [00:31:11] It's the royal we. It's you and the whole pack. 

Nicole: [00:31:14] Yes,  thank you so much for having me. This was a ton of fun.

James: [00:31:19] It doesn't matter if a dog is perfectly imperfect or not, they all deserve love. And you don't have to run a dog rescue to do that. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Long Leash. And if you haven't yet, please go back and check for the other episodes with new ones dropping every week. Already an avid Long Leash listener? Well, we have several other shows here, a Dog Podcast Network for you to listen to like Dog Edition and Dog Cancer Answers. So tune in and you can hear more shows coming from Dog Podcast Network later this summer. All of these can be found on our website at dogpodcastnetwork.com. And while you're you're there, let us know what you think by clicking on the little blue microphone icon at the bottom right of every page and leave us a voicemail with your thoughts and comments about the show or guests that you'd like to hear. I'd like to thank Nicole Kincaid for joining us on the show today. Most of all, though, I'd like to thank you for listening. I am James Jacobson and from all of us here at Dog Podcast Network, we want to wish you and your dog a very warm aloha.