June 9, 2021

“We Don’t Deserve Dogs” with Rose Tucker & Matthew Salleh | The Long Leash #19

“We Don’t Deserve Dogs” with Rose Tucker & Matthew Salleh | The Long Leash #19

People need dogs and perhaps they need us, but what do humans do to deserve the unconditional love that they give? Travel the world with the filmmakers behind ‘We Don’t Deserve Dogs’ as they try to answer that question.

Partners in life, as well as art, documentary makers Matthew Salleh and Rose Tucker travelled the world, looking at the simple and extraordinary ways that dogs influence our daily lives.

“We Don’t Deserve Dogs” is described by the pair as a contemplative odyssey across the planet, from former child soldiers in Uganda to the local pub in a Scottish town to a dog walker on the streets of Istanbul, this film is a kaleidoscope of unconventional portraits from fascinating locations.

This is their second feature length documentary following “Barbecue” – about the ritual of cooking meat over an open flame. At the core, their films seek to tell global stories about the power of community, the role of tradition, and how unique cultural experiences shape the human condition.

Those themes are absolutely captured in “We Don’t Deserve Dogs” and this conversation reveals not just the inner workings of the film, but the filmmaking process they used and the impact the Coronavirus pandemic had on its release.

About Matthew Salleh and Rose Tucker

Matthew Salleh and Rose Tucker are an Australian born, Brooklyn based documentary filmmaking duo. Their debut feature Barbecue world premiered at SXSW in 2017, was picked up for a three year global release by Netflix, and won the 2018 James Beard Award for Best Documentary.

Their second feature documentary, We Don't Deserve Dogs, was selected to premiere in competition at SXSW 2020, which was canceled due to the coronavirus pandemic. The film recommenced its festival run later in 2020, with selections at major festivals including Warsaw Film Festival, Miami Film Festival GEMS, and the Brisbane International Film Festival.

Matt and Rosie's films are consistent festival favorites, screening at over 40 film festivals. Their short documentary Pablo’s Villa was the recipient of the 2014 ATOM Award for Best Australian Short Documentary, and Central Texas Barbecue was awarded Best Short Film at the 2015 New York Food Film Festival.


About The Long Leash 

Thank you for joining us. If you have enjoyed listening, please SUBSCRIBE so you’ll never miss out!  

Check out Dog Podcast Network for other dog-adjacent shows. 

Follow us in FacebookTwitterInstagram, and YouTube


Jim: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Long Leash, I'm James Jacobson. People need dogs and perhaps they need us, but what do humans do to deserve the unconditional love that they lavish on us? That is the very question posed by We Don't Deserve Dogs. A documentary created by Australian born Brooklyn based filmmaking duo, Matthew Salleh and Rose Tucker partners in life, as well as art.

This is their second feature length documentary, and it follows Barbecue about the ritual of cooking meat over an open flame. At its core, We Don't Deserve Dogs, seeks to tell global stories about the power of community, the role of tradition and how unique cultural experiences shape the human condition.

Those themes are absolutely captured and We Don't Deserve Dogs, and I had the opportunity to chat with Matt and Rose, not just about the inner workings of this film, but also the filmmaking process that they used and how the Coronavirus pandemic impacted its release. We also get a sneak peek behind the scenes.

Into some of the stories that you'll see in the movie, if you haven't had a chance to see this film yet, this will be a taster to what you can expect, and it may surprise you. If you have watched this film, this is a peek into the backstory of how it came to be. In either case, once you've listened to this chat, make some time to watch it for the first time or for a second time.

I am sure you will enjoy it as much as I did. Matt Salleh and Rose Tucker thanks for being with us today. 

Matt: [00:01:56] Thanks for having us. 

Jim: [00:01:57] I have watched your movie not once, but twice.

Matt: [00:02:02] Great. 

Jim: [00:02:03] I find it almost meditative. Is it designed that way? 

Matt: [00:02:08] Very much so. I think you, yeah, I, for me, um, the whole thing is meant to be a sort of continuous meditation, the music was designed, the music is set at the pace of a heartbeat. You know, it's got those sort of feelings going into it. So yes, very much. 

Rose: [00:02:24] Yeah. That's even, you've hit the nail on the head. 

Jim: [00:02:26] So it, cause it, cause I always say I don't speak most of the languages, uh, that are, that are in the, how many you're shooting in like how many countries.

Rose: [00:02:35] So we're in 11 countries and 10 languages. 

Jim: [00:02:38] Okay, and even some of the English is a bit difficult, uh, in, in India, um, and or Nepal or, uh, Pakistan, 

Rose: [00:02:49] Pakistan. Yeah, Beenish in Pakistan, she switches between Urdu and English in mid sentence. 

Jim: [00:02:56] Fluently and she is an extraordinary person too. Um, and, and that's, what's kind of, so mesmerizing for me about this film is that you find these not only extraordinary dogs.

Cause one would expect that, but these extraordinary people who are telling a story that you all synthesize as we don't deserve dogs. 

Matt: [00:03:23] Yeah, I think, you know, it was interesting. One person pointed out to me that, uh, that you don't learn the names of almost anybody in the, in the film, but you know, the names of all the dogs, but the, the people are really, you know, quite inspiring as well.

I think what makes it interesting is that none of them are, none of the people in the film are sort of famous or like, you know, uh, media savvy or anything like this, this, we just dropped in on everyday people and these sort of everyday stories will kind of what made them so extraordinary. 

Rose: [00:03:52] Yeah. We have a rule that, uh, we didn't want any experts sitting in front of bookshelves.

Like we wanted to be out there real people in their backyards, in their cities. Um, yeah. Don't no, no science. 

Jim: [00:04:05] Yeah. And you shot a lot of shots in bedrooms. There's a lot of beds in this. Is that a conscious decision? Like no beds, no bookshelves, but beds are okay. 

Matt: [00:04:14] Um, I think it's people in their place and you know, a lot of people living in apartments, living, you know, we, we ourselves live in a very tiny apartment.

So often the bedrooms, like the nicest room with people want to. 

Rose: [00:04:24] Yeah, well, we would often ask people to say, where do you want to do this? And then often they, you know, they might be living with family. So they would say, oh, can we do it in my bedroom so then I can close the door?

Jim: [00:04:35] Is that. were people hesitant to talk about their relationship with dogs? 

Matt: [00:04:40] Oh, no, no, no, no. I think it was just, um. 

Rose: [00:04:42] People would just get a bit embarrassed being on camera. If they've got like family around, you know, listening to what they're saying, 

Matt: [00:04:48] We like to keep everyone else out so that we can have it. So they don't have to be a self self-conscious enough.

You know, these people have come from another country and I've got a camera and a microphone and all of that. So anything we can do to make it a little more comfortable we'll we'll usually, uh, Do 

Jim: [00:05:03] Did this film come together by basically cutting a bunch of different things that you had done in different countries?

Or did you intentionally say these are the countries where you go after we're going to find stories there. 

Rose: [00:05:14] Yeah, we wanted it to be as geographically broad as possible, but we didn't plan all of the countries in advance. So we started by doing like two or three at a time. We would go, I think we started with Romania and Italy because they next to each other or close, close enough.

Um, and we would go and that, you know, that trip would take a few weeks. We'd come back, we'd look at the footage, then we think, okay, we need something to contrast with that. And we'd plan the next part of the shoot. So I certainly wasn't predetermined from, from the get go, but yeah, every, as we went along, we would work out what we needed and what we already had and what we needed more of.

Matt: [00:05:49] And, and with it being just the two of us, it also meant that if we did, you know, like I remember at one point the story that we filmed in Uganda, Rosie had read a little something about the charity doing the work over there. And, you know, we, we made a phone call and they're like, oh yeah, come over next week.

And we're like, okay, let's do it because it was just the two of us and there wasn't some boss, some producer in a, in an office somewhere that had to like be briefed on the situation. We could have that flexible. 

Jim: [00:06:12] Where were you when you moved back? 

Rose: [00:06:15] To New York? When I read about the comfort dog project and I sent them an email and Sarah Schmidt.

Who runs it, literally emailed back within 20 minutes and she said, well, you know, we have a big event happening there at the end of the month. If you could get there for that, that would be good. And I'm willing 

Matt: [00:06:30] That versatility. Great. And it goes the other way as well. When we were in Romania, um, we had co Rosie had coordinated everything so that the, the exact time of the year where they moved the sheep over the mountains, it's all very time to the seasons we were there for.

And then we turn up and then they're like, no, we're not ready. The weather is not right yet. Like three, four more days. And we were like, yeah, sure. Whatever 

Jim: [00:06:49] We can hang out. It's not like you have a million dollar. It's not like, yeah, 

Rose: [00:06:54] Yeah, exactly. We can afford to stay a few more nights and, and wait for them to be for everything to be perfect.

Jim: [00:06:59] So you're frugal filmmakers. 

Rose: [00:07:02] Very much so. And if it's not clear where also a couple, so it is literally one hotel room, 

Jim: [00:07:07] One hotel room, and you can share, you can share your, your, your breakfast. 

Matt: [00:07:12] Exactly exactly. But that gets, but then it's, you know, you, it is frugal and it's, you know, it's sort of, we're very independent, very self-funded, but at the same time, huge opportunity, you know, the potential to be able to have that strong creative vision and, you know, act it out when we go filming in places would have not worked with a giant production. 

Rose: [00:07:30] You get leads to an intimacy with the people were usually filming with that. Like most of the time they don't have much media experience at all. So I think the fact that it's just sort of, the two of us who are a couple, we like to sit and chat and, you know, have a drink or a meal with them first.

Like it's not like we jump in and start filming straight away. We always like to sort of take a bit of time and establish trust first. 

Jim: [00:07:51] So you say it is entirely self-funded. 

Rose: [00:07:53] This film was yes. 

Jim: [00:07:55] And how many films have you two collaborated on? 

Rose: [00:07:59] Ooh, we've worked together for 15 years. Um, a lot of our early projects were sort of short fictional films.

Uh, we really got into documentary about 

Matt: [00:08:08] Eight or nine, eight or nine years ago, two or three shorts, and then another feature documentary. 

Rose: [00:08:13] So this was our second feature doc. We've done one other feature and yeah, a whole bunch of shorts as well.  

Jim: [00:08:18] 15 years. How, how long have you guys described yourself as a couple? Throughout that process? Now there must be some challenges associated with working and living and everything together. Traveling together,

Matt: [00:08:32] Sure 

Rose: [00:08:33] Oh yeah. Oh yes. Yes. Plenty of fights. Uh, plenty of creative disagreements. Um, and you definitely cannot keep the, the world separate.

Matt: [00:08:42] I think a lot of people like, oh, I keep my work life and my home life separate.

And I'm like, well, that's the process of disentanglement is too time consuming. I think it's just easier just to go. It's all in it's it's the film, you know, it's it, the film is life it's business. It's it's relationships. It's the whole, the whole thing mixed in together. 

Rose: [00:08:59] But I wouldn't recommended it's not for the faint of heart.

Jim: [00:09:03] Well, what keeps you, what keeps you sane? 

Matt: [00:09:05] Um, I think, um, well sort of creatively, at least, you know, w we'll have an argument and have it out, like have it out all the way. Like I think, you know, in a way that I think our work has made, so we sort of say that we don't really commit to an idea unless we're both happy with it.

I guess in a way we, we have a fairly unified creative vision, but the devil's in those little differences in little details that if we can't resolve it, that we're both happy with, then it's worth having out over it. And I'd rather be having it out in that sort of environment. Then, you know, have some suit or some, you know, Hollywood executive that you're having to have this argument with.

It it's sort of much safer environment for it. I guess 

Jim: [00:09:43] the films that you have worked together on, uh, have run the gamut from, like your most recent film is about what? 

Rose: [00:09:52] So,  the one prior to We Don't Deserve Dogs was Barbecue. And that was about the relationship between humans and cooking meat over fire all around the world.

So a similar kind of simple subject told in a global company. 

Jim: [00:10:06] Do you see this as your crowning achievement of the, of your collaborations to date? 

Matt: [00:10:13] I think this one was not just creatively, but the way it was made was, was very much like, ah, this is how we want it. And you know, and then the pandemic sort of threw everything for a loop.

We finished the film before the pandemic, but then our premiere got canceled and we had, we went into limbo for about a year. So we've now sort of taken on the other side, which is releasing and distributing and learning all of that side of it. So now it's like, it's, it's been, uh, a through line of DIY.

Rose: [00:10:38] Yeah. 

Matt: [00:10:38] Like the.  We've seen it all the way through. 

Rose: [00:10:40] We basically broke all the rules. People say, don't fund your own film, don't self-distribute and we've gone ahead and done all of that and we're actually enjoying it. 

Jim: [00:10:49] Yeah. Is it turning out to be as lucrative as if you'd gone the other route? 

Rose: [00:10:54] Of course not. No, no. It's financially terrible decision, um, right now, but, um, you know, uh, we we've seen it both ways. Our previous film was like the American Dream. We moved over to America with this finished film under our arm. That film premiered itself. Yes. Barbecue premiered at South by Southwest and was sold to Netflix the day after as well.

Matt: [00:11:17] So we had that, that's sort of the baseline we were offering 

Jim: [00:11:21] It's due to the dogs. 

Rose: [00:11:23] Yeah, exactly. And effectively we took it our Netflix money and made, We Don't Deserve Dogs with that, with that money. Um, uh, but you know, we were hoping for the magic to be replicated second time round. And we we'd done all the right things.

We'd got it into South by Southwest pack bags were packed and then of course they pulled the plug festival off well, premiere canceled. And so then we, yeah, we had to get a bit more creative with how we were going to get this film out there, 

Matt: [00:11:51] So its a little slow burn. And . We're having a lot of fun connecting with audiences.

We're sort of finding little pockets of people that are into the film. And a lot of people have been spreading it word of mouth. So it's been kind of fun and we've got the time. Right? Cause you know,  everyone's caught, like, there's not exactly a huge amount of work for globe trotting filmmakers at the moment.

We're sort of a little bit grounded. So, um, so we're, we, we, yeah, we're reaching out. We were chatting to people talking like we get emails every week. I think people would like something like that, 54 countries, even up to watch the film now. So that's kind of, 

Rose: [00:12:23] it's fun and it's sort of things are happening backwards.

So we released the film online, which is. No, uh, you know, normally you wouldn't be able to play the film in cinemas if you've already released the film online. But it's happening in reverse for us. We released the film online, it got some great buzz, and now we have a cinema chain in Australia.

That's playing the film. So, you know. 

Jim: [00:12:42] The rules are all undone by covenant. 

Rose: [00:12:46] Exactly. So we're trying to take advantage of the new landscape, so to speak. 

Jim: [00:12:50] Well, the major studios are also, you know releasing films on streaming the same day that they're available in the movie theater  

Matt: [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. And so, and so, so, and you know, and there's, and there's that option and, you know, the main thing is we've sort of tried to keep the rights to our films, so, you know, not giving it away so that we can do things with it, like, you know, build a, a relationship with an audience over time, you know, over two, three, four, five, 10, 15, 20 years, you know, not just, not just right now. So it's, it's, it's kind of exciting in a way. 

Jim: [00:13:21] Hmm. What can that relate? What, what do you envision that relationship could look like? 

Matt: [00:13:25] I think it could be a thing with like the film. My, as I said, my grow over time as those opportunities, like a common thing that happens for, um, smaller time filmmakers like us is that you give away all the rights to your film, and then hope that someone else does something. And then if, if something else happens, down the road, they'll make lots of money off of it sort of thing. So this way, if there is, you know, we want this to be sustainable. We want to be able to do this for a long time, 

Rose: [00:13:49] It's learning the model now, so that if we do have to go down this route again, we know we know how to do it.

Jim: [00:13:55] Do you see the audience that you're building as a, like. Uh, an audience interested in films? Or an audience interested in dogs? 

Matt: [00:14:06] It's been a bit, it's been interesting. Like it's, it's, it's sort of be, I think it's just people. I think it's just, I think it's the people that are interested in his life. There is that thing, but they'd be interested maybe in life in a more, um, yeah, it just understanding who's been who the film has been resonating has been really interesting.

Rose: [00:14:24] It's been a little, a little of both. I think there's plenty of people who enjoy watching documentaries and films who can get a lot out of this film, even if they're not that into dogs. Um, yeah. 

Jim: [00:14:34] Well, which audience has ha has sort of bubbled to the top? Are they, are they people who appreciate, uh, quirky documentaries or are they dog lovers?

Rose: [00:14:47] I think, I think the most vocal are the dog lovers, 

Matt: [00:14:49] But it'd be in a way, but I think also, you know, people go, oh, oh, a dog film. And then it's, you know, there's all these cutesy sort of like fun, uh, brighter, I guess. You'd almost say. And we, we, we, from the, from the start always envisioned this as a film that looked at that little more melancholy that sort of more soulful, uh, sometimes lonesome relationship that people have with their dogs.

And we weren't sure how that would connect cause people, when they hear that there's a documentary about dogs, they're like, oh, it's going to be. Bright and fluffy and, and, and all up. And, you know, we, you know, our film has light and shade in it. And I think, you know, we were like, well, people understand. It was interesting when we were talking to distributors, some of them were like, oh, I expected a light and bright film. And we're like, well, it's something different. And they're like, yeah, we really wanted a light and bright film 

Jim: [00:15:36] We wanted, uh, the art of racing in the rain. We, we wanted a talking dog and that, in that way. 

Matt: [00:15:42] There was a little bit of that. And so, and so I think we've connected with this audience that.

A lot of people that have responded very strongly to the film, uh, in a heartfelt way have sort of said, oh, this is a film I've been waiting for. Like, I've been waiting for that deeper. They, it reminds them of maybe a dog that they lost or, you know, like something a little more soulful to it. And that's been really, really a really strong for us to, to, to see those types of reactions.

Jim: [00:16:07] Dog lovers, what have they been saying?

Rose: [00:16:09] Well, it's, it's, it's a mixed some people, um absolutely think that, you know, we, we capture the essence of the relationship. Some people, um, struggle with some of the more serious themes in the film. Um, but I mean, overall it's been very positive. Yeah. I think, yeah. You know, we get people reaching out to us and like sending me photos of their dogs and saying, you know, your film meant so much to me.

And I sat here and I've watched it with my dog and, you know, things like that are really beautiful. 

Matt: [00:16:37] I think one of the things we've always said that in terms of the subjects of our documentaries, I always love it. Love it when it's a subject that gets people talking. And when you tell people. Oh, we're doing a documentary is about people and their dogs like, oh, you should feel my uncle or, oh, this reminds me of this or reminds me of that.

And that's been probably the strongest thing that I've noticed is, you know, if we, if we post it on a website or there's a review or there's comments or people send us an email, it's storytelling, people go like, oh, I want you to know the story about, yeah, everyone's got a story, a story. Hearing all these other stories and like, yeah, those are really interesting stories.

Jim: [00:17:13] Yeah I can relate, I have this thing called Dog Podcast Network.  What was interesting is that, you know, your film came out, Elizabeth Lowe's documentary Stray came out and uh, we're we're she chronicles the, the stray dogs in Istanbul. Um, Were you guys aware that she was working on that when you were 

Matt: [00:17:36] No, not at the time.

No. After, after the film was finished, I think we were aware that there was one there's it seems inevitable is that you think you've got a completely original idea and about five films. Well, you become aware of what 

Rose: [00:17:49] We saw that everywhere, like there's the truffle hunters as well. Um, and yeah, so there's this  

Jim: [00:17:56] They're stealing my idea .

Matt: [00:17:58] It was a bit odd when, when there was a film about truffle hunting dogs and we had truffle hunting dogs in our film and then a film about dogs in Istanbul. And we had, and I was kind of like, all right, there's definitely shown, subliminal. 

Jim: [00:18:10] Clearly the dog  gods or god dogs are, uh, are, uh, are demanding this type of content Do you? What, what's your thought about that? Do you think there is a greater, uh, appetite, insatiable appetite for these, uh, contemplated movies that discuss, uh, the relationship between humans and dogs? 

Matt: [00:18:35] I think. Yeah, I think, I think there are, I think there's, um, There is an appetite to really heartfelt. And it's a bit tough for us to know, because we don't really, when we conceive of a film, we don't go like, oh, that's going to do really well.

You know, w w you know, we, if for us, it's just sort of where our hotlines. 

Rose: [00:18:51] Yeah. And we don't watch, we don't watch the other content, particularly while we're making a film and we might hear. You know about other similar projects. We, we intentionally don't watch them because we don't want, 

Jim: [00:19:01] you send me your dailies, and I'll send you mine.

Matt: [00:19:02] Sometimes we're aware of them at least like, but, but like, I think for us, it was, it was, um, I, I think that's probably just a commonality in filmmakers wanting to tell those, tell those stories and that, that like those other filmmakers were at the same point in their careers where we were in our own, we're all probably part of a movement towards something rather than us all trying to be something, if that makes sense?

And it's, so for us, it's a very natural thing. And for me, the more the merrier I go, there's plenty of places. 

Jim: [00:19:32] Have the three of you guys gotten together?

Matt: [00:19:35] Not  yet no. I think if there had been a, uh, festivals, 

Jim: [00:19:39] Maybe we will have to do that. Well, we'll have to bring the three documentarians of 2020 dogs together, 

Matt: [00:19:46] A big round table, 

Jim: [00:19:47] A big round table.

Rose: [00:19:49] We can all complain about how difficult they are to film 

Jim: [00:19:53] Well, were they? 

Matt: [00:19:55] Well, they, they, well, I'll tell this one story. When we were filming the truffle hunting dogs in, in Italy, they, um, I think the, the, the trough, the truffle hunter said, said to me, he said, there's two types of truffle hunting dogs. One we'll just sort of stay really obediently by your side and just sort of snuff out the truffles and stay on the path with you.

And then the others are like crazy. They'll go over the mountains, up and down and across and like that often when you go and I'm like, which top do you have? Oh the latter. And I'm like, oh, okay. That's going to be a lot of work. So we're already filming at high altitude and I'm not the fittest guy on the planet to start with.

And so I'd go like, well, where will the dogs go? And like, oh, they're going to go up that mountain. So I'd sort of like climb up a mountain and then they're like, they're like ready? And I'm like, sure, sure. Ready? I have the camera. And then they just go down the other mountain and I'm like, that's okay.

That's cool. The process of documentery is just, is just time. Just give it lots and lots of time. And eventually these sort of, and there's that one shot in the film where. Where we, we followed behind a dog for like two minutes and at the end of it, he finds us perfect. That's just pure, perfect chance.

You know, he might've gone the other way and I might've run the other way, but it, this sort of, there's this weird ballet and eventually everything lines up and everything's perfect. And if you give it time and patience that invariably occurs, I think, 

Jim: [00:21:04] It was that scene that I thought this is meditation. It was really watching that two minutes unfold because.

You were, I thought you were an awfully lucky film and you did run and then you could just see, you must get a steady cam or something.

Matt: [00:21:19] The little handheld one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, yeah, no, it was one. And you just watching a guy, like I'm just going like, just don't don't. Don't mess it up. Just don't fall over life?

It's usually when there's something beautiful happening in front of it, people are always like, oh, well, how are you taking it in? And I'm like, I'm making sure my battery's not flat on me. You know, I just want to get the shot in the can for later consumption 

Jim: [00:21:41] And you didn't have to run with him. Uh, Rose when, when the, when the dogs were running, searching for the truffles?

Rose: [00:21:46] No, I, I would usually stand back. Cause if you're running while you're recording sound, you're going to get nothing but the sound of your own footsteps, particularly when you're walking over those beautiful crunchy leaves. Um, so I would usually hang, hang back and observe from a far while, while all this was going down.

Jim: [00:22:01] What other challenges did you have with, uh, having WC Fields is credited with saying never work with children, or pets, I think maybe dogs. Uh, what other challenge did you have with, with, uh, uh, filming the dogs? 

Rose: [00:22:16] I think that the, the, the hardest thing was that we couldn't really touch them or interact with them yet. We had to ignore the dogs because you want instinctively, you want to pat them and, and hang out with them. But, but the minute you do that, they're just going to come and sit with you next to the camera and, and not be a dog. So we had to develop the art of just. Not even making eye contact 

Matt: [00:22:37] And the dogs would move on about, about five minutes in they'd go like, all right, well, I'm not getting anything out of you.

So they just go back to regular life. And I wasn't mad cause I was, that was one of my biggest worries. Like, are they just going to come up to the camera, come up to my head,

Rose: [00:22:49] Believe me, we got plenty of footage of dogs coming up and sniffing the cameras.

Matt: [00:22:53] But honestly I think, and, and you know, I think dogs are in their own world a bit as well.

And eventually they would, they would go like, all right, fine. Well, you had your chance. And then it's like back to back to whatever they were doing. Be it. The hunting truffles or, or walking the streets of Santiago. I think the most amazing was a Chino in Santiago.

Rose: [00:23:11] He did, he did not give, he did not give two hoots about the camera at all.

Matt: [00:23:15] He was just sort of like did not care. In the story we, you know, he wanders the streets at night and that's genuinely what we did. You know, I remember the translator. I said, I hope you brought a book. And she literally had bought. Brought a 2000 page book. She's like, I'm just going to sit and wait and we would go sit with Chino and he'd run up to the park and he'd just sit there and watching things for about honestly two or three hours.

And we just sit with him and then he'd be like, I'm off now. And we're like, oh, okay. You know, you always gotta be ready. So he'd, he'd walk off to the next place he wanted to hang out and we would just sort of capture 10 seconds of that. And it's like, well, that was worth it that's three, you know, like. It, uh, they, they, they, I was surprised how much they were able to click back in, to their normal lives and ignore us. Thank goodness. 

Jim: [00:23:55] How many days of shooting did you, did you track Chino? And of course, as you see in the movie, Chino has a lot of different names cause he has different personas, uh, depending upon where he's hanging out. 

Matt: [00:24:05] Yeah. Most of it's over two very long nights. I think, I think most of what you've seen in the film was over three months, and then I think we filmed the gentlemen at the hospital separately and some of the other little bits and pieces

Rose: [00:24:15] for three days, we went back and got a few extra pieces with him.

Jim: [00:24:18] Was it hard to find him? 

Matt: [00:24:20] Well, that was her biggest worry. We had this, this person who did street tours in Santiago. She's like, we told her the concept of the film and she's like, oh yeah, I'll find you the most amazing quick throws. Um, and, and she told us about Chino and we're like, fantastic. We're coming, we're coming down.

And then we're like, how do you. Darren like his, he lives his own life, you know? And then we're like, what if we come down there and there's just nothing, right. 

Rose: [00:24:46] He lives his own life, but he does keep a schedule. He does keep a schedule. So we had it on good authority that he would be inside the pet store if we came around like 11 am 

Matt: [00:24:57] And then, and then, and then, um, I was like,

Jim: [00:24:59] I like a dog who can keep time.

Matt: [00:25:01] I was like, he's not going to be there. This is a waste. What if he's not there? And then I'm like, well, luckily there's plenty of other cultures, but like this one was meant to be the, the, uh, the finest of the mall. And like, um, it was, we turn up and he's sitting there almost like I'm ready for my closeup.

He was ready to be, was ready to go. He was almost like, yeah. Where have you been? The, you know, the agent said, uh, you know, it was like, it was perfect things happen if you let them, I think, yeah. 

Jim: [00:25:25] I spoke with Elizabeth Lowe who did Stray. Do you know how she did it? 

Matt: [00:25:29] No, no. 

Jim: [00:25:30] She put GPS tracking on the dog. 

Matt: [00:25:32] Uh, we had, we discussed this, we had said, should we use GPS tracking? We decided not to in the end, we were like, leave it to the, I figured if nothing else, I could have stuck my phone to him. Right. And that has at least a GPS, 

Rose: [00:25:43] But I guess, yes, she had to cover the them. 

Jim: [00:25:47] Over a long period of time and different dogs. And it's like, how do you know, oh, we'll have to put a little GPS on it then 

Matt: [00:25:54] that's a great way to have this interactive map of where they all were. I guess 

Jim: [00:25:59] She could see how far they traveled, which was quite a distance. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break right here to hear from our sponsors. And when we return, I'd like to discuss some of the scenes in the film. This is the Long Leash we'll be right back.

We are back with Matt Salleh and Rose Tucker. So when you were filming the movie, was there a part in particular that you found to be more emotional than the others? 

Rose: [00:26:26] I think you hit the stories of the former child, soldiers in Uganda was, was, you know, has to be up there. Um, you know, you've got people telling pretty horrific things, but they're telling these stories and you can just see how much the dog is helping them just by sitting there with the while they're telling these stories like that was just, that is the relationship captured right there. 

Jim: [00:26:47] And these are for, for our audience. These are people who were swept up in the genocide and they tell these horrific stories and they have a lot of, um, anxiety and PTSD and make credit the dogs with, and this and this organization that you profile early in the film with, uh, helping them live normal lives today.

Matt: [00:27:10] Yeah. Um, and you know, yeah, more normal to, to put it simply I there's about nothing worse that human beings can do to another human being, then make them be a child soldier, because it's just compounding trauma, the trauma of a child having to, to, to murder early in their life. But then, forced into this when the war is over and they come back to the community, they are often ostracized because they were forced effectively to be the bad guy.

So that that's that compounding PTSD and trauma. And that's what some of the people we speak to in the film refer to so it's this, it, it really did summarize this whole concept for our film, which was like, well, you know, do we deserve the love of dogs given? I just love the idea. Um, I think Lucy says it in the film that like, you know, dogs forgive everything, dogs, you know, they, they don't.

See any of this, they just don't judge. They just don't judge. And I think that was really, you know, by showing them

Rose: [00:28:05] I think dogs don't point fingers. 

Matt: [00:28:07] Yeah. And I think that's a really powerful, um, and it's interesting because in that area of Uganda dogs, aren't normally kept as pets as we perceive it. You know, they're, they're often kept as guard dogs are working dogs.

But not pets as we see. And so I think Lucy also says like, I didn't know, dogs could be trained to be your friends. Yeah. And I think that says a lot, you know, when, you know, you know, we're from Australia, living here in America, you sort of have this very simple understanding of what relationship with dogs are, but to put it in a place where that's a new relationship and they are seeing it sort of, it's almost like a control, you, you sort of what they observe in dogs.

There's a lot of truth in because they are seeing it without generations of dog ownership that were used to, for example. 

Jim: [00:28:50] Were you struck by the eloquence of the people you were interviewing in Uganda? 

Matt: [00:28:56] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that part for part of that, the part of that is the language thing and that we, you know, we're not in the film, we don't speak, we let people speak.

We let them have complete agency in their story and tell it in their own language, you know, creates there's certain challenges in, in, in translating it afterwards and all of that. But to me, that, that really lets them tell it in their voice. And I think, yeah. 

Rose: [00:29:18] Um, and we were, you know, obviously going into this, we were a little bit worried that we didn't want to make anyone's trauma worse by having them retell these horrific things.

And we, we, you know, discussed all of that before we went ahead, but the overwhelming sort of consensus was that these people wanted to tell their stories. It actually helps them in their therapy. It's it's sort of recommended, recommended part of it. So I think part of that eloquence comes from the fact that they have told these stories.

Matt: [00:29:46] They reinforce the power of it by retelling them. 

Rose: [00:29:49] Exactly. Exactly. So they know their stories so well, and they're proud of telling that story. So they're very eloquent when they do so. 

Jim: [00:29:56] One of the other scenes that obviously was, uh, very striking was what you shot in Vietnam. 

Matt: [00:30:03] Hmm. Yeah. It's um, you know, it's been interesting, obviously that scene is always going to have is the scene that people are going to talk about and are going to remember for us, for me, 

Jim: [00:30:13] it was well let's reveal  for our listeners if we're not revealing too much about the film.

Matt: [00:30:18] Yeah. So, so basically the, the, the question when we you know, conceived of this film, everyone asked us, are you going to do something about the dog meat trade in Asia? And it would have been a really easy thing to say, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. Keep it light, keep it puffy. Um, but you know, I, and I'm of Asian heritage myself.

And so, you know, the, the light. Do you guys eat dogs has been a school yard. Like refrain since I've been at, you know, there's there's I think Joel Kim Booster, the comedian goes like, we all know what people always ask Asian people and it's it's do you eat dogs? And, but that also to me reveals that people don't know what it, what it is and what, like, people don't know how to contextualize it.

People have these, these visions, all that. And so. From us, for us it started as a point of curiosity, like, well, what, what is this dog meat trade? And how do you reconcile? You know, and our last film was barbecue about barbecue. How do you bring all of this together? And how, how do you understand the relationship between humans and dogs between humans and animals without understanding the side of it?

And then we just sort of said, well, let's just tell it. Let's not, you know, not in a gratuitous way, not in a judgemental way. Let's just sort of tell it and let him, you know, once again, you know, by the CA the people we speak to in the film, let them tell their story, let them tell it in their words. And so it sort of evolved very, um, naturally for us to the point that it was like, we felt that leaving it out of the film. Would have been saying more than leaving it in. And so that thought of how we approached it. 

Jim: [00:31:46] How did you find, I mean, you, so you knew that you wanted to cover it, so you, you thought Vietnam was the place to, to go. 

Rose: [00:31:53] We investigated it in several places, actually. Uh, we spoke to a, uh, a researcher in South Korea, um, and then spoke to someone in Vietnam and, uh, we felt, that we had the right person to do the research in Vietnam. Uh, the, the, the girl that we were working with there, uh, had, uh, she was very sensitive about the issue. I think we trusted her in being able to approach, um, you know, someone working in the dog trade and, and knew that she would be able to do that in a sensitive way and gain their trust.

That's why we ended up landing on w we filmed in Hanoi. Um, and she, yeah, she did a brilliant job because obviously, um, even in, in Vietnam, you know, people are very, very nervous about showing this side of their culture to the Western world, because it obviously gets a lot of negative press.

Uh, and so I think they were very, very worried that we were going to come in and, you know, make them look bad. So we had to work very hard to gain their trust. 

Matt: [00:32:52] To let them know that we would just telling the story as you know, telling their story. 

Rose: [00:32:56] Yeah, exactly.

Jim: [00:32:57] Do you think it's a sympathetic portrayal? 

Matt: [00:33:01] I don't know if the words for me, it was like, I think the, that, that scene is probably us trying to be the most standing back from it.

If that makes sense. I think, I think there is a natural. Uh, attempt at sympathy and understanding in everything we do so that, like, I try to meet people at the level that they, um, that they existed in the world, you know, like, um, yes, I have Asian heritage, but I also grew up in Australia, Western heritage.

So for me, it's, it's, it's just as confronting for us watching it, knowing that like, well, my propensity is to, to be appalled by this, this, this world, but then I also understand that that's a cultural thing of mine as well, being raised in a, in a Western country. So for me, it was just like, I was trying very hard just to stand back and just like, appreciate that these are human beings just doing it, making a living.

So in that sense, I guess that there was a sympathy there for regular life. Um, but then I would say, you know, that on a personal level, that was very hard. They're hard scenes to film as well. From, uh, yeah. 

Jim: [00:34:06] I can only imagine what you ended up putting in the cutting room floor. 

Matt: [00:34:09] Yeah, yeah. And put, and for me, and I think that batteries.

Yeah. But I think what was important to me also was that, that light. Yeah. And we learned this from having made the film Barbecue is that like there's certain imagery we could use that would in it's in and of itself. Be, uh, distressing enough that that would, uh, obfuscate the actual conversation we wanted to have, which is like, well, if we, if we have to reconcile the way we live our lives in the West, we need to sort of think about what this all, you know, I think it's, um, uh, alarm says in the movie, it's like, he literally just didn't get it.

Like, yeah. Yeah. He said, um, he literally just said like you eat. I don't get you guys eat pigs, you eat. I just don't understand. You know, he really just didn't think there was that much of a big deal about it. So, and I was like, well, that's a perspective that I think is, is the most valuable perspective did to glean out of this story? I think so. Hmm. 

Jim: [00:35:01] Well, it was definitely a bold choice for a film that. At least obstensively is, is geared towards dog lovers. And it's a hard thing to, to, to, to cover. Did you guys grapple with that decision or you just knew ahead of time, like this is when we want to be all in on this. 

Rose: [00:35:19] No, we, we, it was, uh, one of the last, close to last things we shot.

Um, we were not intending to do this at all, but like Matt said, people kept asking almost joking, like, oh, are you going to, are you going to show people eating dogs? And it got to a point where we're like, you know what? Yes, yes we are. If we're out there making a film about the relationship between humans and dogs around the world, in all it's different aspects then, then, then we need to include this. 

Matt: [00:35:48] And I think in terms of you asking how we grappled with it. Yeah. We, um, one of the, I think the ways we, you know, we were talking about before, the way that we film things, gives us this great power to like, to get rid of external voices. Like, you know, we didn't have like somebody going, oh, you know, you won't sell the film.

You know, we'll have that photo crap. Like we, it was just us reckons and it was isolating, you know, for about two, three months in this, you know, little apartment here in Brooklyn, we lock ourselves in and we edit. And we sort of had to make the decision. No one knew we had shot the scene, like where like, um, even, um, the people that help us try to get the film to distributors, even they didn't know about it.

And we, we basically finished the whole film and got it to South by Southwest going like that's, that's it. That's what that, you know, like that's the director's cut. That's, that's how we'd like to do. And, you know, wherever the chips fall in terms of how people react to it. And you know, the South by Southwest, they were the first people to see it.

And they were very much like, yeah, it felt like a necessary scene. To the film and then, you know, we, we, and then in the year that's followed, it's been sort of, uh, it's, it's been interesting. There's been a lot of people that have, you know, being thankful for the scene or at least understood its importance.

Um, on the flip side, we had some people from a film festival that had heard about the scene and wouldn't even look at it. You know, I like, so there's a, you know, we've missed some opportunities to reach.

Rose: [00:37:06] I w I, I won't lie. We've had distributors turn down the film because of that scene, and we could have cut it.

It could have cut it right then and there, and we decided not to. And that's, you know, that's a pretty ballsy move when it's literally money on the line. And, but, you know, we feel that strongly about this, about the scene being included. 

Jim: [00:37:26] That's where I say this is, there was a bold choice. Um, I love, we talked to touched on briefly the truffle dogs in Italy. I think I want to come back as a truffle hunter. I think they live a pretty awesome life and those dogs have. So much fun.

Matt: [00:37:47] Yeah. I I'm my favorite, I think one of my favorite bit was like, um, riding in their, in their pickup truck with them and it literally smelled, 

Jim: [00:37:56] it was like a big four by four. It was like, it was like, everything is so rural. And it was like, oh, that's a brand new fancy American. 

Matt: [00:38:02] Yeah. And, but the, but it smelled like truffles. It just felt like I was cigarettes. So truffles 

Rose: [00:38:09] Really, really intense smell. But yeah, those dogs are, they just love it. Are loving life. 

Matt: [00:38:14] And it was, I think it was, um, um, uh, Luca explaining to us that he said that, um, like dogs themselves don't particularly like truffles.

That's why, cause, cause traditionally it was always pigs that, um, would, would snuff them out, but pigs love the truffles. So they would like, you know, go at them and sort of like eat them. 

Rose: [00:38:31] And also the pigs really dig up the ground.

Matt: [00:38:35] They destroy the gentle spores of the truffles underneath.

Rose: [00:38:38] It, a big problem out there with like wild boars, just tearing up the ground.

And, and that's no good for the truffles. Apparently 

Matt: [00:38:45] For the dogs, it's a constant game. Like they literally, they do it just for the love of the reward from there or in a and all that. So it's kind of, yeah, they don't, they don't care for the truffle. They could care less. 

Jim: [00:38:57] They care for the treat and it's basically, I found you this and then they'll give me my Liberty or whatever, what is in their pocket?

Rose: [00:39:05] I don't know what it was actually, but the dogs knew straight away. They'd always go straight to that pocket 

Jim: [00:39:13] Clearly way better than, than, than what the truffle is.  We did a, a segment on Dog Edition. We'd learned a little bit. Did you know the why they stopped using pigs and why, why dogs were used other than what you said was right.

But there's another reason because there's a secret because of course they're very protective about where the truffles are in the forest. And so when you walking your pig, it looks a little more obvious than like, oh, you're walking in your pig versus you're walking your dog. 

Matt: [00:39:43] Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, it's very, um, it's all very, it's all very territorial.

And I think the guys that we will we've had. Like they had the rights to the land, but they were there and I'd be like, well, who's that truffle hunter? And he's like, oh, he's a poacher  and it was sometimes they'd be like, I'd be like, do you get upset with the poachers? It's like, no they're not going to find anything.

They don't know what they're doing. So it's almost like, let them have it. Cause they're not going to, they don't know what we know. Like. 

Jim: [00:40:11] And then I guess we'll touch on one more scene, which was the sheep herders. Paint that picture for us. 

Matt: [00:40:18] That was the first thing we filmed in the film, uh, that was in, uh, the mountains of Romania, right near Transylvania.

And, um, just this, there's not a huge number of families that still do it the traditional way, something we've learned in a lot of our filming over the various  films is that, um, a lot of the traditional ways are dying, just cause it's too hard. It's just too easy to pop the sheep in a truck and move them.

Rose: [00:40:41] Yeah. So what happens is these guys are looking after multiple people's sheep up in the mountains, um, throughout summer. Um, and the, at the end of that period of time, they have to move them back down the mountain. And what's happening now is that everyone's just doing it with big trucks. The trucks come up, load up the sheep, bring them down the mountain, but these guys are still insisting on doing this day-long, you know, hike across the mountains. And then when they get to the other end, where the most interesting thing was watching them redistribute the sheep back to yeah, the original owner was like, are there even any marking. But, but they did, they did know. And he had, I think about five different owners worth of sheep and they all got divided out and that was it for the season.

Matt: [00:41:23] But that was, yeah, that was really amazing. It was, it was, you know, they, they, they, we could not work out. Um, we could not work out where they were going to go. They sort of tried to explain to us, we have this map out of like the Romanian mountain and our track and our translator used to occasionally mix up the word for left, with the word for right. I mean, she was great, but she wasn't fit 

Rose: [00:41:43] The most beautiful thing was, and there's shots of this in the film. The, the, the, the flock of sheep is led by a group of cows at the very front. And the cows have walked this, this path every day for however many years of cow lives and they know the route. So there was no shepherd leading the front.

The cows were leading the flock. So we learned, just stick with the cows because the cows know it. They know exactly where they're going. It's just a day long thing and they know left right up down this little laneway here. It was amazing. 

Jim: [00:42:15] That is extraordinary. Now the, um, sheep herder was wearing this like, um, like, did you call to central casting for the wardrobe he was wearing this? 

Matt: [00:42:28] One of the things that we've always done is never asked people to dress up in any sort of , it's not that net, sixties, Nat Geo kind of, uh, look and, and cause I kind of liked that. I kind of liked when we were filming on the previous filming Mongolia, it would be sort of half traditional clothes and then half an Adidas tracksuit.

So this one here that was just naturally, he would just, everything was like, uh, like an old Van Gogh, Renaissance painting. He wasn't putting, he had less than we were there. So like, it's not like he was putting anything on .

Rose: [00:43:02] This was his legitimate clothes. I just love his collection of impractical hats. So they have these amazing hats that sit on the top of your head and don't, I don't know what is holding them on.

And then moving the sheep across the mountains, wearing these hats. It's brilliant. 

Jim: [00:43:19] It is extraordinary. And you found these people in part because of these fixers you've you, you, you amassed, how do you, how do you going back to the whole fixer thing? Where do you, how do you find that you're in Brooklyn. 

Rose: [00:43:30] You start with the internet and you, and you start digging and you just, there's a, there's a few websites you can use for like, um, finding film crew and things like that. But most of the time we would just figure out, okay, we wanted to film about a street dog in, in Chile. So it lets you know, street dog tours. Let's look at people who do street tours. We found this company that did these, um, really interesting street tours with like, um, you know, feminist history of Santiago.

Like I'm like this, you know, this girl sounds really cool. Yeah. 

Matt: [00:43:59] She had, and we, when we spoke to her, she had Risa. It's like, there's no book on the LGBT or, um, or feminist history of Santiago. She went and knocked on doors and created this map. And I'm like, well, that's the way, yeah. 

Rose: [00:44:11] This girl I'm like this, girl's got Moxie.

She's going to be good for this. So I just emailed her directly and she's like, oh my God, I love dogs. This is the best project.

Matt: [00:44:18] It wasn't hard to rope people into the that's the easy bit? 

Jim: [00:44:23] Was it a little, a little easier with dogs than barbecue? 

Rose: [00:44:27] That both were pretty easy. I think the hardest thing with, with barbecue was that.

People didn't understand that we just wanted to show like their regular, like an uncle cooking in the backyard, like 

Matt: [00:44:37] Why that's just so normal. And I'm like, and I'm like cooking Horvath's in the middle on giant swords in the backyard may be very normal to you, but our people would be very fascinated 

Rose: [00:44:46] you know, you know, people would think, oh, you want to do like an Anthony Bourdain thing and go find like, you want us to go find a chef? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no shifts just. 

Matt: [00:44:55] And we had a few on that. Just go like, all right, well youre paying, do whatever you want. 

Rose: [00:45:01] Well, dogs was easier because people were instantly just wanted to show off show off their dogs. You know, I know that in, uh, in Pakistan, like finding Beanie , um, our, our fixer who's a journalist, um, all she did was put the word out on Facebook and she's like, Hey, do I know anyone interesting out there?

That's got a dog and Beanish came forward and she's like, this is me. This is my dog. 

Matt: [00:45:24] I have a friend you've spoken to Beanish right? Like she's pretty cool. 

Rose: [00:45:29] Obvious choice. Yes, exactly. 

Jim: [00:45:32] You said that your people, when you're talking about Matt, when you're talking about the barbecue, like my people, so, you know, there was your audience. Do you go into a project knowing. What your audience, who your audience is? 

Matt: [00:45:45] I th I think it's, I think it's like being an evolving, like in a way they're very personal stories. We tell. So in a way, like where the first tortilla it's like, we, we kind of really like our own films and that we, you know, make them that way.

And then it's that kind of like, I think I see the audience as being people that are fascinated by the world, but really open-minded, um, uh, we sort of describe it as our films, people watchers like the kind of people that just sit on a park bench and watch people going by all day and inventing stories about them.

If you're that sort of person, I hope our film is made for your kind of personality a bit. So we sort of have this idea of the personality of people that have that openness and have that, um, desire to understand other cultures and understand themselves through how others live their lives. And it's like, if we can get that right, then, then it sort of builds out from there. I think.

Jim: [00:46:35] What's the Genesis of the title. We Don't Deserve Dogs. 

Matt: [00:46:38] Oh yeah. Well, I mean, it's a really common phrase on the internet. That's what it started and you'd sort of see, and I'd sort of, you know, flicking through Facebook or, or whatever, you'd go. Like we don't deserve dogs and it would be this sort of cute thing that, you know, you can get a hundred thousand posts like at a day.

And then we started going like, well, that's a really interesting quote, do we deserve dogs? Then it would just, just sort of, it sort of, for us became this way that we could, judge  the film, uh, is, is. This idea that the, that the dogs in our film, they have loyalty. They have love. Do we deserve that love that they give them, it was sort of just a way for us to get the conversation going and thinking about the kind of stories we wanted to tell I think

Rose: [00:47:18] Yes. I think it's funny because in the US people were quite familiar with the phrase, but in other parts of the world, they're definitely not. And having to sort of explain, that it wasn't, we don't want it to have a negative connotation. We are not literal. It's not literal. We're not saying the people in our film don't deserve dogs. 

Matt: [00:47:35] It failed it got lost in translation a few times. And then I, and then I go, you call it, we don't do that. It doesn't like, yes. But think about it as like we do deserve dogs. But do we, to me, that's too many words on the title. 

Jim: [00:47:50] You started the project with the title 

Matt: [00:47:52] and it became a bit of a roadmap for us. Like a question we would constantly ask when we, when we were editing it all, when we were chatting to people's like, do we deserve dogs? Like we would meet these dogs. Like, you know, do we deserve the love that, that, um these dogs and dogs in Uganda have all like, or how sh Sherri receives being in Pakistan.

Like what does that mean? Like, and so just, it actually ended up being quite a, um, like a Wayfinder for us to get, to go through the film and, and find the stories and find the ways to tell the story. I think it was always this little like, scribble note on the back of the hand, like that helped us through it.

Jim: [00:48:26] Did your personal feelings about dogs evolve as a result of this work? 

Rose: [00:48:31] I mean, we've always loved, I've always loved dogs. Like my family had dogs growing up. If anything, it just made me realize how desperately we need to get one. 

Jim: [00:48:40] I was going to say, there's no dog. There's no dog.  behind you, which is the poster for the movie.

Rose: [00:48:47] We do not currently have a dog. We live in a very small rented apartment and we're not allowed to have dogs, but more importantly, with our usual travel schedule, it would be pretty irresponsible um, I think, and we don't have any sort of family over here that we can, you know, let mind the dog. But I think during the day during the film, I just, I, I just felt dog sick.

Like we, we, this needs to happen for us very soon. 

Matt: [00:49:13] I found myself looking like constantly looking into their eyes, both filming it and yeah. Editing it. And I was just always going, like, what, what are you, you know, like the law and like, you know, there's a lot of shots in the film of like just the, it was actually quite interesting because I was often filming sort of on hands and knees and like crawling across grounds to get the shot and seeing that dog world.

And you know, there's a beautiful shop, pretty much what the poster is, all which is Major watching his owner, um, or his temporary owner, Val, his rescuer and. She didn't, she didn't know that until she saw the film. She didn't know that he, he sits there staring at her. She was just having a pint in the pub.

And, but I got to see that by being at that low level and observing how I think I got to sort of get a better idea of, of what's ticking over in their heads while, whilst down at their level. That was kind of fascinating. 

Rose: [00:50:03] Yeah. Val told me that after watching the film, when she saw that shot of Major, just looking at her with this look in his eyes and she said she just burst into tears.

Jim: [00:50:13] I think that is what  that is what makes this film so meditative is, is the amazing, uh, cinematography extreme close up cinematography of a dog's eyes, uh, in so many different shapes and colors. And it wasn't, you know, it's not like, oh my God, it's just an iPhone, but there's so many amazing shots of like beautiful brown and the black and the, and the, and the way they look and the, and their, their, their soul, I think comes through.

Matt: [00:50:42] Yeah, I think so. And it's, and I think it's that constant. I think for one thing I learned is for dog owners that that's, uh, that is like, You people look into the eyes of dogs to question the, their soul, but to question their own soul. It's a very, it's a very, uh, fruitful transaction when you, when you stare into a dog's eyes.

And, and so for us making the film that, that, that was visually, that was just really powerful for us. And yeah, and, and it literally that wasn't, that was not something that I went into the film going, oh, must shoot lots of dogs eyes, that was something when we were editing it. And I'm like, Wow. This dog is literally just, you know, cropping a bit there.

Cause it's like, she's literally just, she's literally just watching the whole, like her gaze won't won't move or whatever, you know? So that was, that was, yeah, really that's something that I learned for through the film is, is, is the way that they watch their own 

Rose: [00:51:32] Constantly observing 

Jim: [00:51:34] Speaking of watching, obviously, since this has primarily been distributed, uh, through streaming and people watching it at home on TVs, uh, what kind of feedback have you heard about dogs watching?

Matt: [00:51:47] We, we get some photos. We get some photos sent to us. 

Rose: [00:51:50] I had a very  funny video a friend sent me of her cat watching the film with , the cats eyes were huge. Like, oh my God. Um, no, I, we heavily a lot of lovely feedback. A lot of people sending us photos of their dogs watching and that I like to ask, like how dogs react. Some dogs bark at the screen, others just very calm.

Um, I think the scene of the birthday party in Peru with all the dogs barking, that one, that one usually triggers. A reaction from any dogs that are watching dogs.

Jim: [00:52:23] Yeah. It was a bunch of Maltese having a, it was a whole bunch of white dogs having a birthday party. And you could just see the diversity, but they're all pretty much the same thing.

Rose: [00:52:31] Well, it was literally a Maltese group that was, yeah, there was a few outliers, a few, a few other breeds came along for the party, but by and large, 

Matt: [00:52:41] Fish out of water. 

Jim: [00:52:44] That's awesome. So what is next for you guys?

Rose: [00:52:47] Oh, good question. Well, um, this film basically took all of our life savings and then the pandemic hit.

So we're not really in a position right now to get out there and start making another film. Um, we need to consolidate. Earn some money, we're doing some corporate work. Commercials, that kind of thing. We'd love to make another film, but more, more importantly, like we like telling these global stories about, you know, things that bring people together and right now in the world, that can't happen.

Um, we really don't want to make a film about the pandemic because there's going to be a lot of those. I don't think we have anything really new to add to that conversation. So I think we sort of want to. Bide our time a little bit, and then hopefully be able to tell, you know, another great positive story about our global family. 

Matt: [00:53:35] And I think, I think in terms of, you know, the pandemic and what is something that has effect it's had on us, is it, and I think this is for a lot of artists and a lot of gig workers is, is, oh, you know, like you have to be so sustainable, you know, you ha how do you, you know, for us, it's all going to be like, we would love to spend the rest of our lives doing that, doing this.

We've, you know, we've been able to do this for about 15 years, but it's always been, you know, Never knowing what comes up next week. So this idea of like, well, we should really make sure we can do this. If we want to do this 30 or 40 more years, we have to sort of crack that. 

Rose: [00:54:06] Yes. He can't have all the eggs in one basket again, like, like we did with this film. Yes. 

Jim: [00:54:13] Well, Matt Salleh and Rose Tucker. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. The name of the film is We Dont Deserve Dogs. 

Rose: [00:54:21] Thank you so much for having us. 

Matt: [00:54:22] Thank you. 

Jim: [00:54:23] After watching, We Don't Deserve Dogs, you may be repeating the title to yourself, but perhaps with a little different emphasis, We Don't Deserve Dogs. But that is part of the reason that we as dog lovers adore them so much, our canine companions want nothing more than to snuggle by our side or go for a walk or of course receive a handful of yummy goodness. I want to thank Matt and Rose for chatting with me today. Again, if you haven't yet watched the movie, go check it out. You can find it links in our website or on their website, which is www.wedontdeservedogs.com. The film is available for rant on Amazon prime video or Vimeo or Google play or YouTube, and pretty much all the streaming sites.

If you are a fan of physical media. Yeah. You can grab a copy of either the DVD or the Blu-ray of this movie as well. If you like what you heard on today's podcast and you are looking for more dog content, please check out our entire back catalog of long leash episodes and for even more shows, aimed at dog lovers, well, please check out some of our other Dog Podcast Network programs like Dog Edition and Dog Cancer Answers. And more are on the way. We are adding new shows all the time, and you can find them at our main website, which is dogpodcastnetwork.com. We here at DPN would love to know what you think. So please leave us some feedback.

We are available on our website, www.longleashshow.com as well as on all the social media channels. And if you happen to stop by the site, go ahead and click that little blue microphone icon that's at the bottom, right of every page. And you can leave us a voicemail. We really would love to hear from you.

We are available on all the podcast apps, as well as Spotify and YouTube. So please make sure that you follow us so that you don't miss an episode. Also, go ahead and tell your friends about us here at the Long Leash and Dog Podcast Network. I'm James Jacobson. That's our show for today on behalf of all of us here at Dog Podcast Network, we wish you and your dog a very warm, Aloha.