June 08, 2021
Hollywood Pet Hotel Turns Rescue Retreat | Dog Breed Pain: Perception vs Reality | Dog Edition #21

She transformed her luxury dog hotel in Hollywood into a rescue retreat, but nothing prepared Melissa Bacelar for the large-scale hoarding scene she found at one Californian property.

The emotional, physical and mental toll that comes with hoarding dogs for both rescuers and ‘animal collectors’ is immense, but little is known about the complexities of the issue. Also, when it comes to pain sensitivity in dogs, are all breeds created equal?

Hollywood Pet Hotel turns Rescue Retreat

Animal hoarding is a complex problem encompassing public health, mental health, and animal cruelty. Words like unimaginable and disgusting may come to mind at the thought, while the people who hoard animals are often dismissed as incompetent and cruel. While little is understood about this issue, many are doing their bit to save the many dogs being hoarded across the globe. Among them is Melissa Bacelar, who transitioned her Luxury Dog Hotel Business to meet the need of large-scale rescues during the pandemic.

Pain sensitivity: Are all breeds created equal?

Is a Bulldog tougher than a Maltese when it comes to pain or is that just how we perceive them? That is the big question being tackled by a dream team of veterinary minds at North Caroline State University. They are investigating whether all dog breeds are created equal when it comes to pain sensitivity. While there is data to show dog owners and veterinarians believe there are differences, there are not any confirmed biological reasons for it. But the findings of this research could have ramifications for how vets potentially recognise and treat pain in our furry best friends and how dog lovers interact with different breeds. 

The Hydrant

Jim, Pam, and Caroline stop by the hydrant to sniff out the latest dog gossip, innuendo, @jokes, and notes.

Melissa Bacelar

Wagmor Pets is a non-profit international dog rescue devoted to helping solve the issue of dogs experiencing homelessness. It is committed to preventing cruelty and promoting kindness to animals with an overall aim is to reduce animal suffering and increase animal wellbeing. The work to rehome dogs to responsible and caring homes where they can thrive and live happy lives, was founded by Melissa Bacelar, celebrity pet matchmaker and dog expert. During the pandemic, from March 2020 to today, Wagmor Pets has rescued more than 2,800 dogs.




Margaret Gruen

Dr Margaret Gruen is Assistant Professor of Behavioral Medicine at North Carolina State University and is the overseeing the research project in pain sensitivity. Dr Gruen is an experienced veterinary behavioralist with a demonstrated history of working in the higher education industry. She is skilled in Veterinary Medicine, Life Sciences, Science, Public Speaking, and Animal Welfare. Dr Gruen completed her veterinary degree at the University of Illinois and went to North Carolina State University for an internship followed by a residency in veterinary behavior. She completed a Masters in Veterinary Public Health and became a board-certified veterinary behavioralist. After spending a couple of years at Duke University, where she co-directed the Canine Cognition Center, Dr Gruen returned to NCSU to head up more research in the space.





Here’s What We Found at The Hydrant

Building a DIY office chair for you and your pooch to share

Mother-daughter rescue dogs: same canal, 24 years apart

Teen protects family dogs, while Mama bear protects her cubs


>> James Jacobson: [00:00:00] Hello, I'm James Jacobson in Hawaii. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:00:08] And I'm Pamela Lorence in San Francisco. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:00:10] And I'm Caroline Winter in Adelaide. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:00:13] Welcome to Dog Edition. The first show designed for you to listen to while you walk your dogs. Today we're going to take a deep dive into a painful subject, which is, do dogs feel the same level of pain, regardless of which breed they are. Caroline, you had an interesting conversation with a researcher on that. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:00:35] Yeah, I did Jim. So we don't ever want our dogs to feel pain. We know that. But of course they do. And as you mentioned, we don't know how that pain changes depending on the breed of dog. And that's the burning question that researchers are looking to answer. So, what about you? Does your uh, do you think that your Maltese are tougher than a bulldog when it comes to pain? 

>> James Jacobson: [00:00:58] Absolutely. Unequivocally no. No, no. I think, um, my Maltese are very sensitive. I think they're, they're hearty dogs, but they're pretty sensitive and maybe emotional, but definitely not heartier than a Bulldog. What about you? You guys? Pam. What, what are your dogs tough? 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:01:18] Oh, you know, I think Fudgie is. The older dog. She never winces at a, you know, at a vaccination or anything like that, but the little guy, he's a big baby. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:01:30] Maybe it's in very individual thing. Well, we'll find out in our first segment. What's coming up later in the show?

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:01:36] Oh, we're going to get a glimpse of what it's like to handle large scale dog rescues. So animal hoarding is a very big, but also very misunderstood and under-researched issue. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:01:47] And as always stop by The Hydrant with us at the end of the show for a rundown on some of the doggy headlines that captured our attention this week.

>> James Jacobson: [00:01:56] So if you love dogs as much as we do, pause what you're doing, leash up your pup, and let's take a walk. We've got a lot to talk about on today's episode of Dog Edition. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:02:08] Hey Pepper. Want to go for a walk? Is a Bulldog tougher than a Maltese when it comes to pain or is that just how we perceive them? That's the burning question at the center of some fascinating research around whether all dog breeds are created equal when it comes to pain sensitivity. There is convincing data to show dog owners and veterinarians believe there are differences. There aren't any biological reasons for it, but finding out could have ramifications for how vets potentially recognize and treat pain in our furry best friends. And how we as dog lovers interact with different breeds. And so a dream team of veterinary minds at North Carolina State University have come together to do just that. Caroline has the story. 

>> Dr Margaret Gruen: [00:02:58] Well, we really know very little about how different breeds respond to pain. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:03:04] That's Margaret Gruen  Assistant Professor of Behavioral Medicine at North Carolina State University. She's overseeing the largest study of its kind asking when it comes to the pain sensitivity threshold in dogs are all breeds created equal. 

>> Dr Margaret Gruen: [00:03:20] What I found in a survey that I did, and that kind of sparked this work was that both the general public and veterinarians believe that dogs differ in pain sensitivity, despite there being no real biological reason for that.

>> Caroline Winter: [00:03:37] What you believe versus what's scientifically proven are obviously two different things and making sense of that is what Margaret and her team have embarked on. Back to the study in a moment. But first let's hear from some people at my local dog park about how they view their pooch's response to pain. 

>> Dog Owner: [00:03:55] I I'm the owner of a lhasa apso who's now 10 years old, who really doesn't seem to feel any pain, um, just such a toughy little dog. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:04:08] And so why do you think that's the case? 

>> Dog Owner: [00:04:11] Well, the perception is that when they look in the mirror, they see a lion. So their concept of themselves is they're a big, huge dog, And that is a well known concept. And they were a watch dog in Tibet because they have a real bark. And so they are a little dog with a real bark. I have a Siberian Husky, and, uh, he is what I would consider to be a very, very robust, tough dog, but I probably have that perception, also, after seeing them in the wild and seeing that they will run until they bleed their, feet bleed and they would literally keep running until they drop dead, um, rather than, than not perform. Um, they are quite amazing. But in saying that, uh, I'm sure that their sensitivity level is probably as much as any dog, but they just handle it differently. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:05:07] So that's interesting. So when you think about different breeds of dog, do you think that there is a difference in the pain sensitivity depending on the breed?

>> Dog Owner: [00:05:14] I think definitely. You see, um, what we would consider to be pampered household dogs, um, that look, if you look at them the wrong way, either their temperament, um, or their mood certainly seems to change that. Whereas a utility dog will definitely just get on with it. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:05:36] While a Bulldog may seem tougher than a Maltese when it comes to handling pain, Margaret Gruen says it's important to find out if that's our stereotyping them or if there's actually some science to it. 

>> Dr Margaret Gruen: [00:05:47] And that's what we're trying to figure out is, is there a real difference because if there is, that is really important for our understanding about how pain works and about pain pathways and pain genetics, and might lead us forward into more, um, personalized medicine and pain treatments for dogs. And if it's not, then we need to understand where that perception came from. What's behind that perception. Where do we learn it? How do we learn it? And then does that impact how we actually treat them? If we believe that Maltese is more sensitive than that Bulldog, then does that actually impact the treatment that we deliver to them?

>> Caroline Winter: [00:06:25] She says there's a lot to gain for dogs, owners, and vets from this research, regardless of the outcome. But til now little is known about pain sensitivity thresholds, because it's really hard to measure. Since September, Margaret and her team have recruited 150 dogs, all family pets, across 10 different breeds from Chihuahuas, Malteses, and Jack Russells to Golden Retrievers, Labradors, Siberian Huskies, and German Shepherds. After making sure they're in good health, each dog undergoes two pressure tests and a heat test in a round of sensitivity testing. 

>> Dr Margaret Gruen: [00:07:01] And what we do is over a series of five trials for each of the modalities, we place the stimulus on the dog and gently increase the pressure for the pressure ones, or just leave that on there for a certain amount of time for the heat and wait until the dog says, I don't want to do that. I don't like that. And so they tell us that by either pulling their leg away, which they're free to do at any time. Some will turn their head, um, give us some indication that they have detected that stimulus and would like us to stop. So we try very hard to explain to owners that we're not trying to induce pain, we're looking for the point at which the dog says I don't like that. I'd like you to stop. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:07:45] Next is the fun part where the dogs play cognitive games, measuring their attention, span, emotional reactivity to new objects and strangers, and even whether they're optimists or pessimists, as you'll hear here, when a ball is put down for Eve the Golden Retriever. Which he investigates excitedly and is rewarded with a treat.  The range of tests paints an overall picture of what makes the dog tick and as Margaret explained, will help them figure out whether some breeds are more sensitive to stimuli or more emotionally reactive in general. 

>> Dr Margaret Gruen: [00:08:21] So if we find that there, there's no difference in pain sensitivity then we need to understand whether the difference that people are perceiving is because of some difference in their response to, say, the novel object. Do we see a breed difference there? Or is there something else that's feeding into that, that perception? 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:08:41] The team have a few more dogs to test and they'll start analyzing their data in July. They expect to have results by September, October, but there's no sneak peeks just yet. Margaret tells me just lots of anticipation.

>> Dr Margaret Gruen: [00:08:54] I'm so excited about either potential outcome, because one means that we need to really understand where the perception came from. And that is fascinating too, but I would also be equally excited to find that there is a difference that then allows us to understand more about how we tailor our treatments for particular dogs, how we understand something about pain biology.

>> Caroline Winter: [00:09:21] So I think, I think when the findings are actually published, this is going to be really, really interesting, but, uh, Dr. Margaret Gruen wouldn't give me any hints on just whether there are differences. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:09:34] She was holding it awfully close to the vest. I, I like that. We we've been talking to some scientists recently and they won't share their information until they want to share their information with the public. Well, I also think it answered the same thing that I was saying in the top of the show, which is that I believe, I believe that she'll find out that Maltese and perhaps other breeds are more emotionally reactive than like, then pain threshold. But we'll find out and we got to cover this story when they come out with their results. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:10:06] We will, I mean, perception and reality, such, uh, uh, uh, cavernous, you know, valley between the two. So looking forward to those, uh, those results. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:10:15] So when they release the results, we will be sure to cover that. We'll be right back. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:10:20] You're listening to Dog Edition. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:10:22] Welcome back to Dog Edition. Unimaginable deplorable disgusting. These are the types of words that might come to mind when you hear about animal hoarding. The people who hoard, or collect, animals are often dismissed as incompetent, cruel, and malicious. And that's mainly because very little is understood about this psychiatric issue. Almost no psychiatric literature exists on the topic. And to date, no research has addressed strategies for resolving cases of animal hoarding. What is known is animal hoarding is a complex problem encompassing public health, mental health, and animal cruelty.

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:11:05] I would say we do hoarding cases every month. I mean, it's like insane how many hoarding cases there are out there. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:11:14] To understand how big the problem of dog hoarding is we spoke with Melissa Bacelar. During the pandemic she transitioned her luxury dog hotel business to meet the need of large scale rescues.

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:11:28] It was like pandemic, no boarders, no daycare dogs, cause everybody was home and scared to leave their house. And we're like, okay, so now we have these two empty hotels. I have a ton of staff that's required to be here 24 hours a day. Like, what are we going to do? And so I said, God, you know, why don't we give our hotel to these dogs that need a place to be, and let's start bringing them in. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:11:56] Melissa is stranger to dog rescues. Her nonprofit, Wagmor Pets, has been rescuing dogs and making them available for adoption for years. Her location on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City, California launched her rescue into the spotlight. In fact, you may have heard of her. She's been dubbed the celebrity pet matchmaker. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:12:19] Before the pandemic, Ellen Degeneres and Porsche adopted a dog, Chrissy Tiegen and John Legend adopted a dog. Jennifer Aniston adopted a dog. Sandra Bullock adopted a dog, um, Ariana Grande. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:12:34] When she got the call from a California shelter asking for help with the rescue, she felt uniquely qualified to offer her space and her staff to the cause. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:12:45] April or may we get a phone call from one of the shelters we partnered with and they're like, listen, is there any way you could take a few Pomeranians? Like, we found a trailer and inside this trailer there are 52 Pomeranians. They were just living in their own feces. Like, just like, they just had dreadlocks of, of dried poop. And I, I called my General Manager Ellie and I said, look, there's 52. There's a rescue that will take like 20. So there's still like 30 something left. She goes, let's get them. Within five hours, we had crates of Pomeranians in our front lobby. My groomers came back to work. The groomers started shaving dogs. My staff was making bowls of food and, but I mean, and we all just rallied and we got all of these dogs in. We fed them all. We groomed them all. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:13:31] Melissa leaned on her community of supporters and followers on social media to help transport dogs from that large scale rescue. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:13:39] Okay. A, we have this community of people that want to help. B, we can take on a ton of dogs at a time, which we never knew we could do. So that was our first big one and the shelter was like, so you guys will do hoarding cases? We're like, we will do hoarding cases. This was easy for us.

>> James Jacobson: [00:14:03] Her second big hoarding rescue was anything but easy.

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:14:07] I got a phone call. She's like, there's a house that has 15 terriers. These dogs are in the front yard and there's like a makeshift fence and they can get in the road and the neighbors are shooting BB guns at them. And I'm like, what? I'm like, yes, we will come tomorrow.

>> James Jacobson: [00:14:21] Nothing could have prepared Melissa and her team from what they found when she arrived at the scene the next day. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:14:29] We pull up and there's a trailer and there's mountains of garbage. And there are, at this point from the car, at least 50 terriers, like coming out of the garbage. And I was like, oh my God. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:14:50] She documented the rescue on an Instagram live stream.

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:14:54] Hey guys we're, um, here in Bakersfield at the property right now. There's dogs everywhere. There's dogs in the street. There's dogs all over. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:15:06] Only one case series on animal hoarding appears in medical or psychological literature. Most participants reported their collecting started in childhood. Many, had no telephone, public utilities or plumbing, and many hoarded inanimate objects as well. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:15:23] So we walk into this front and every time I walk, I see another 20 dogs at least. And I'm like, oh my God, this is so overwhelming. So shocking. And the woman who lived in the trailer. She lived in a trailer with no running water and no electricity. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:15:47] Many of the collectors emphasized that their animals gave them unquestioning and uncritical love. They tended to view themselves as rescuers of suffering or unloved animals. They worried the dogs would be euthanized if they didn't take them in. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:16:05] You know, the woman, the thing is with these hoarders, from what I've found, like. they, they start out doing a good thing, but they don't have the resources or the funds or the knowledge to spay and neuter because if she had 15 dogs that were all spayed and neutered, that is a lot of dogs, but it's manageable. I, you know, she didn't mean to do this. This is a mental illness. This isn't like, oh, I'm going to torture these dogs. She was trying to help these dogs.

>> James Jacobson: [00:16:33] A more recent survey of animal shelter operators, detailed 54 cases. In 69% of those cases, animal feces and urine accumulated in living areas. And over a quarter of the hoarders beds were soiled with feces or urine. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:16:49] The house was something like you've never, I mean, you haven't seen it in movies, you've not seen anything thing like this before. There wasn't even a place to step where there wasn't poop. There wasn't a inch of the bed that there wasn't poop. This woman was living in that. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:17:09] Dead or sick animals were discovered in 80% of the cases. And in more than half of those, the hoarder would not acknowledge the problem. This is a situation Melissa encountered during this rescue.

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:17:32] Yep.

>> James Jacobson: [00:17:40] The situation was too emotional and devastating for Melissa to continue with the live stream. People who hoard dogs are often surprised and hurt by the news that they can't keep the dogs. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:17:53] We got every single dog. We, Ellie was like, look, ma'am, I will help you. We will help you. You can not keep any, like, this is like, you can't. You can't. We need to take them. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:18:06] This rescue was as much about the human as it was the dog. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:18:11] We need to get you cleaned up. We need to get this house cleaned up and then we can move on. So we took 120 dogs. Every single female was pregnant. And mind you, this is during the height of the pandemic where vets didn't even want to spay and neuter. So we're like begging vets to help us. And, you know, we're like, at least let us get the boy's neutered. Please let us get the boys neutered because we don't want more babies. You know?

>> James Jacobson: [00:18:37] So the total number of dogs saved from that situation ended up being closer to 300. There's no research into treatments or strategies for resolving the behavior of animal hoarding. Sadly, most animal hoarders repeat the behavior. In the case of the woman in Bakersfield, Melissa is keeping an eye on the situation. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:19:02] And I go to Bakersfield once or twice a month and I drive past her house. I drive past the trailer. I want to make sure there's no dogs there. Cause I want to like nip it in the bud. Like if she gets a dog, let's get this dog fixed. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:19:17] During the pandemic, Melissa transformed one of her luxury dog hotels into a full service rescue operation. She's committed to keeping up and even expanding her rescue efforts. 

>> Melissa Bacelar: [00:19:30] Truly the pandemic made me see. That my passion is going back to dog rescue cause I was doing it so small and I wasn't, I wasn't out there in a hoarding house, pulling dogs and when I started to actually get to do that, because yes, this is like, what gives me life. Like it breathes into me and I love doing it. And I, I will do it every day in my life, even the, you know, there's a lot of sadness in dog rescue, but in the end, like, there's more good than bad. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:20:02] And the good in the Bakersfield rescue comes from the fact that all, but one of the dogs and puppies were adopted into their forever homes.

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:20:14] Yeah, I'm hopeful that last a dog's going to get adopted though. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:20:17] I think all 200, it's, she's doing amazing work and it must be so taxing. I, to see those things and to smell those smells and to be there, she's doing extraordinary work and with a little help from her friends in Hollywood, which I think is really nice. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:20:35] Exactly. Yes. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:20:37] Now let's divert ourselves over to The Hydrant, hopefully not a smelly place, for a rundown on some of the doggy headlines that have captured our attention this week. Caro, what caught your attention? 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:20:50] Well, I know we'll be doing some stories on pet friendly offices and workplaces, but what if you're continuing to work from home and your pooch plans to stay firmly planted by your side or on your lap? Enter swedish inventor, Simone Yech and a rather funny gal, I might add. After a fruitless search on Google for office chairs that are pet compatible, she decided to make her own. I don't know if you've seen this video, but it's worth a watch. No, what she came up with is pretty, pretty genius actually, it's a raised chair or more like a cushion benched bed with enough room for her and her pup Scraps to sit both perched at the desk. And then there's like a staircase that wraps around the back so the dog can get up and down and a little hidey hole Hutch underneath for some quiet time. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:21:44] I think we might need to review that one. Uh, my wife has started, uh, you know, getting out into the world and going and doing things like Pilates, much to the dismay of our dogs who are just totally devastated. Like you left me for an hour and a half. I had to stick with dad by himself uh, our dogs really would love to be able to be tightly connected. That sounds so cool. We'll put a link in the show notes and then, uh, whoever this is, if you want us to review one, send us a send us a chair, we'll check it out. Pam would you see? 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:22:18] Well, I came across a story that starts way back in 1997 in New Orleans. There's a woman who at 14 years of age, at the time, rescued a Pit Bull from a canal, and of course, she was bitten for her, for her good deed. Um, that's, fast-forward 24 years later and her daughter is walking along that same canal and, uh, And sees the dog struggling in the water and jumps in and saves, saves the dog. Also, also a Pit Bull. So this mother daughter duo both rescue dogs from this same canal, 24 years. It's time to fence the canal. I think, 

>> James Jacobson: [00:23:02] I think so. And, and, speaking of mothers and daughters, I'm sure you guys saw the coverage that made the headlines all over the world last week about this brown bear in, uh, in a place in California, Bradbury, California, that had scaled a fence and was going to, uh, and had a little dog in its mouth. And it was about to, was about to bring it back. And the 17 year old owner of this dog chased the bear away and basically was a giant hero. She was feeling that she had to like save her little puppies and the whole, the whole crew that she had there. And, uh, but she really scared of this giant bear, uh, just with her sheer tenacity of force again, a very heroic, but perhaps a little, uh, in the moment 17 year old. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:23:58] You're being very gentle. She body-slammed that bear. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:24:02] Body slammed that bear. And I think all the, uh, the wildlife people say, this is not something you should do. Uh, but, hey, she loved her dogs and she would do anything to save them. And I understand. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:24:14] Yeah, it's remarkable to watch certainly from Australia where we don't have bears, but what incredibly large creatures and what a brave, as you say, brave, or, um, focused young woman. Um, that video is really worth watching for anyone who hasn't seen it, which I know we'll have in our show notes. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:24:33] Well, this might be a hot take, but I want to give a shout out to the bear who was protecting her two little bear cubs. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:24:40] The bear was protecting her bear Cubs, but not from the dogs. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:24:45] Yes. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:24:46] What? I guess I missed that part of the story. What happened? 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:24:49] The bear was walking along the wall and the dogs came rushing out to the wall and started barking at the bear. And so the bear reached down to swat the dogs away. The bear Cubs took off the mama, sort of stood her ground and then the woman came out and body-slammed her. So she, the bear was trying to protect her little cubs from the dogs who rushed out to a bark at it.

>> James Jacobson: [00:25:13] I didn't get that piece. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:25:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:25:17] Fascinating. Okay. So there's this protective instinct, but that was amazing. What you see in slow-mo. Thank you. I didn't get that. I was just, I was so mesmerized by this a 17 year old, but you're right. We should give the bear credit. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:25:33] Yeah, I gotta stick up for the bears out here.

>> James Jacobson: [00:25:36] The California thing I guess. Well, that is all we have time for today. I want to thank you for bringing Dog Edition along with you on your walk. And we will be back with another episode next week, but chances are you and your dog will be taking a walk between now and then, and we have something else for you to listen to.

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:25:59] If you're interested in hearing more from some of our guests, please check out DPN sister show The Long Leash for Jim's extended conversations. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:26:07] This week, you can hear my conversation with Kristin Morrison, owner of the Six-figure Pet Business Academy. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:26:15] And follow Dog Edition in your favorite podcast app. so you can always take us along on your dog walk next time. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:26:22] On the next episode of Dog Edition, Dean Koontz. Yeah, him, the international best-selling author, who you may be surprised to find out is a massive dog lover. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:26:33] And I sniff out a story about COVID sniffing dogs and their role in getting us through the pandemic. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:26:39] Visit Dog Edition.com. There is a button on the bottom, right of every episode page, so you can easily leave us a voicemail and share your stories and thoughts with us. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:26:49] And check the show notes for links and information about the guests on this episode. 

>> James Jacobson: [00:26:54] As a reminder, we are looking for correspondants as we continue to grow this podcast and our Dog Podcast Network. So if you are a content producer or a journalist, a podcaster, or, or an audio storyteller, who loves dogs, check out our Hundred and One Dog Stories Contest with over $15,000 in prize money. 

>> Caroline Winter: [00:27:16] And we'd love you to join our pack. Be sure to follow Dog Edition and tell a friend about the show. I'm Caroline winter, your resident news hound. 

>> Pamela Lorence: [00:27:25] And I'm Pamela Lorence. See you at the dog park.

>> James Jacobson: [00:27:27] I'm James Jacobson. Again, thank you for listening today. On behalf of all of us here at Dog Podcast Network, we wish you and your dog a very warm Aloha.